63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

[Frank D.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

All------


It can be very difficult to read the frame-stamped VIN derivatives. It's supposed to be that way and that's why they are so important as they are not easily "messed with".

If one is looking at a car and the VIN plate matches the VIN derivative stamped on the engine and transmission, one can be reasonably sure the car is legitimate. It's not proof-positive, though, because the engine, transmission, and VIN plate could all have been transferred from another car, possibly one that was wrecked but for which the owner had the ownership documents. This circumstance is unlikely but possible.

However, if a car does not have its original engine and transmission, then the only way a buyer can determine that the VIN plate is original to the car is to check the frame stamping. Yes, it's difficult but it's the only way to ensure that the car one is considering purchasing is legitimate.

A BIG RED FLAG: the engine or transmission is correct for the year and model in question but does not match the VIN. That's the biggest red flag possible.

Of course, once one owns a car, then one does not want to know if the frame stamping matches the VIN tag. One wants to "assume it does". I wonder just how many Corvettes (and other collectable cars) out there are actually previously stolen cars with "switched" VIN tags? I'll bet there are more than most people think.

How did this happen? Back in the day lots of young men wanted Corvettes and other hi performance cars which are now Big $$$$ collectables. Insurance was VERY TOUGH to get for a young man with a high performance car, especially a Corvette. If they had a loan on the car, they had to carry massively expensive collision insurance. But, if they totaled the car, the insurance was there to make the bank or finance company whole. That could leave the owner with no car to show for a few years of payments. If they owned the car outright, they often drove without insurance because of the cost or, even, impossibility of getting it. Back in those days there was no state mandate of insurance in order to register a car. Of course, driving without insurance or insufficient insurance was a stupid thing to do. But, young men had powerful desires to own and drive those hi-performance cars. And, those young men drove them in ways that made accidents a propensity (that's why insurance for them was expensive or impossible to get).

So, what to do when their Corvette or other hi-performance car was totaled? One easy solution was to find another car, steal it, and transfer the VIN plate. Presto! They were whole again. They now had a car that was just fine (maybe even better than the one they wrecked) and they had the ownership documents that matched the VIN. They could drive the car and, even, later sell it just like nothing had happened. They probably didn't know about the frame VIN stamping or, if they did, cared less about it. No one ever checked that. Their secret was hidden.

I was in the used car biz with my Dad and uncle in Norfolk in the 60's and saw it all; Joe flat out nailed it...
Our dealership actually had EXACTLY what Joe cited above happen to us.

We had a gold painted C2 coupe with a tri-power BB that we had agreed to purchase wholesale but the money and title hadn't transferred yet as it sat out front on the lot. Norfolk police showed up the next day and took the car, we had no idea it was stolen luckily the loss was on the dealer that was selling it to us. The car had been stolen and "rebodied".

An under 25-year old male, unmarried wanting to insure a performance car was the triple-whammy.
Only a couple of my friends could afford it.

I ran on a company dealer tag (with separate insurance) as an employee at age 17 and that let me pull it off.

[Richard M.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

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Of course, once one owns a car, then one does not want to know if the frame stamping matches the VIN tag. One wants to "assume it does". I wonder just how many Corvettes (and other collectable cars) out there are actually previously stolen cars with "switched" VIN tags? I'll bet there are more than most people think.
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Joe , Very true, but it's not just if the vin tag matches the frame. There are so many ways things can go bad.

Like a car that still has it's original frame, and the body has it's original Trim Tag, but the VIN tag was switched to a different vin number reproduction tag, likely chosen as back then there was no National vin Database... AND... there now exists TWO cars with the SAME VIN NUMBER. The ORIGINAL car AND a COUNTERFEIT car.

To this day I am still so angry about this scenario. I have to tell this story as it could happen to anyone. Advice is to do ALL of your homework before a major financial plunge. 1963... or anything.

Here it is. A original REAL car was in a garage for 20 years owned by a widow. She kept the car for many years after the passing of her husband. Not in any database as it was a no title required state at the time, only registration slip was required. During that time a "other" car was built from the original found Protecto-Plate Vin#, L71 mind you. That car then goes to auction, sells big money, then sells again out of the country, and again to 2 others in that same country. All the while the REAL car is still sitting in the widows garage.

10 or so years later, the REAL car is discovered and comes out of the garage and sold to someone. A year later and that someone sells to another someone. That someone has the car a few years, all happy and having fun with it, then gets the car restored. During the restoration the body comes off, frame vin matches vin tag, Trim Tag and Vin tag authenticated by a barrage of experts, including a professional Corvette expert paid-for evaluation and opinion all is good with the tags, car etc. During the restoration, a history search by a Pro Auto-Ancestry analyzer is done, but very confusing.

The National Database history is only about 20 years prior. The widow's state isn't even listed. That's strange.

The start point is Alabama, at TWO different "Title" places. Uh Oh, a Title fabrication headquarters state. He calls those "Get-your-title-Here" places listed in the report, no info volunteered from either. Hmmm, of course.

Next stop Pennsylvania, Uh Oh, he calls that "Famous Vette" place there that some of you know about, no info. It doesn't make sense.

Next Stop Florida. He talks to that guy who owned it years prior. He said he bought it at auction in Florida. Then he sold it to a guy north of the US border.

Next stop after that, back here in this country, the guy who bought a "car" from the widow, and coincidentally he is also in Pennsylvania. But the state he got it from when the widow had it, is NOT even in the National Database. He's a new car dealer and Corvette enthusiast. He sells it to a customer/acquaintance of his.

Next Stop.... Present owner of record.

We dropped the search as it was a dead end there.

So later, it's figured out.... The National Database car initial entries were the COUNTERFEIT car! Except the very last entry, which is the present day entry and the one relative to the REAL car, because the COUNTERFEIT car left the country years ago, then the REAL car shows up years after that, restored, authenticated, proven the REAL deal, then evidence of the same vin of a COUNTERFEIT car show up in their records.

So there you have it. The National Database has a vin trace of TWO cars with the SAME vin. A REAL car sits with it's owner, A COUNTERFIT car sits with it's owner in another country. Allegedly a court case by the owner of the REAL car took over 2 years to prove he has the REAL car, while the OTHER car sits up there with a tarnished past and likely a very disturbed owner.

Rich

[Pancho T.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

Wow,what a mess

[Joe R.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

And now those cars are called Resto-Rods!

JR

[Richard M.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

I know this is off the main topic of 1963 Vin Tag authenticity, but this thread has sparked a nerve in me to add yet another piece of the puzzle when researching and investigating a purchase. So many factors besides the technical details should be in play.

Wow,what a mess

It certainly was. When you find out years later the real truth comes out. It's a major game changer. I learned some lessons from it. If a car has a POP, one has to look very closely at the information it holds.

The BOGUS car was born from the POP. But that same POP ultimately caused it's demise. The perpetrators totally missed it, along with the several prior owners, and their sellers, and the auction house that represented it the first time it came out after it was concocted. They ALL totally missed it.

The REAL car had it's NCRS Shipping Data Report given to the new owner when he purchased it from that dealer that got it from the widow. This matched the cars Trim Tag date, exactly. The St. Louis body build number was smack dab in the middle of several other cars before and after their builds. Perfect.

The BOGUS car had no Shipping Data Report matching it's build date. The Trim Tag build date was 9 days BEFORE the REAL car's verified build date. The BOGUS car Body number was about 1000 cars earlier than the vin# reference of BOTH cars. That should be enough right? No.

The POP got in the picture and was scrutinized. No, not the fonts or aberrations of characters, or anything unusual. It was a simple 6 characters defining the Rear Differential code. Not surprisingly, that code exactly matched the REAL cars' Differential which was still in the car from birth.

The POP, now residing with the BOGUS car, shows the date of the Differential assembly date. Remember that the POP is original. The Differential date on the POP PRE-ceded the build date of the REAL car by a normal amount of days.... 8 days. The REAL car Build date was 8 days later. All dates make sense.

Here's the showstopper....

The BOGUS car Trim Tag build date was ONE DAY BEFORE the Differential assembly date as shown on the POP! Total oversight by the counterfeiter(s), and everyone else afterward.

So, the POP that the car was made from ultimately proved that the car itself was a FAKE!

Rich

[Ed V.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

All,

Thanks for the replies. I am glad it sparked some interest, and feedback. I will do what I can to ensure I get an original but with all the possibilities, it sounds like a challenge at best.

Have a good weekend!

[David H.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

All,

Thanks for the replies. I am glad it sparked some interest, and feedback. I will do what I can to ensure I get an original but with all the possibilities, it sounds like a challenge at best.

Have a good weekend!

Ed

Post a good clear picture of car's Trim Tag, that will help.

Dave

[Ed V.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

Hello Dave,

I do not have a good picture of a trim or VIN tag. Research has been over the internet so far and I only have access to what is actually posted. I will try to get more specifics when I narrow things down. At the moment I will likely wait to see what I see at Barret Jackson Scottsdale. Search will likely resume after that.

Thanks,
Ed

[Richard M.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

Hello Dave,

I do not have a good picture of a trim or VIN tag. Research has been over the internet so far and I only have access to what is actually posted. I will try to get more specifics when I narrow things down. At the moment I will likely wait to see what I see at Barret Jackson Scottsdale. Search will likely resume after that.

Thanks,
Ed

All,

Thanks for the replies. I am glad it sparked some interest, and feedback. I will do what I can to ensure I get an original but with all the possibilities, it sounds like a challenge at best.

Have a good weekend!

Ed, I am glad my dissertation has brought an extra awareness to help in your challenging search. The '63s didn't have POPs or Tank Sheets so it's even more challenging to have that comfort level. A NCRS validated Window Sticker is often sure proof of a '63 authenticity, along with all the right pieces of the proverbial puzzle. Things like original Dealer Invoices or original Shipping documents help, but those are very rare to find with a car.

When you get close to finding a good candidate, it's highly advised you have a fully experienced Corvette Pre-Purchase Inspection expert do a evaluation before commitment. And unless you have first hand knowledge and prior PPI done on a car you're considering at auction, only use the auction for knowledge in the hunt, which I think you eluded to in your comments above. (BTW, Pancho is one of those I highly recommend. He's excellent at what he does)

It's exciting and fun to search for a long desired Corvette. My wife and I were on the hunt for a '63 Powergilde Coupe for her in the mid 2000's. When we attended the 1997 NCRS Nationals and she saw a SWC close up she got the bug. 10 years later I found one for her in Virginia, in early December of 2007. I conversed with the seller in the morning, got photos of Vin/Trim Tag/Engine Stamp Pad and Cast date. It was a 300HP car with about 67,000 miles. Everything seemed legit so I told her this might be it. She also loved the color, Silver Blue. She said.... "Let's go right now!". I said "Really?".

So at 3 in the afternoon we packed some clothes in the Pickup along with our 2 Cocker Spaniels in the back seat for the long drive up there. That year it was very cold up there so we needed extra layers. If all went well we'd get a U-Haul trailer and bring it home. After a overnight in northern Georgia late that night, we arrived at noon at the sellers location the next day. After several hours of inspection and a test drive, we did the deal. The car had some issues but I knew I could correct them. Then we drove over to the rental store, got the trailer, went back and loaded it up and took off back to Florida. We forgot to eat so we stopped for some food. I took a few shots of the new owner and her new ride with keys in hand.
63trip9.jpg

We got back home in the early morning hours the next day, quite exhausted but all was good. We had much fun with the car over the years, with her driving it everywhere and me restoring it, that is.

Below are a few photos of the Vin/Trim Tags & Engine/Trans stamps. It's a late February build.

The car was evaluated for Bowtie at the '08 NCRS Florida Regional. It couldn't Bowtie as there were substantial modifications including upgraded Front Disk brakes and added A/C. However all of the tags and engine was deemed "typical" with the Mechanical judges.

Since this was a low horsepower automatic it follows the tendency of likely being a real car with real attributes like engine, transmission, tags, etc. The upper tier cars are the ones you really need to be more cautious about.

Good Luck with the search,
Rich

[Ed V.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

That's Awesome! I can only imagine how your wife felt in that picture.

Ok, so I looked on Hemmings again and found one local that I originally passed on due to the VIN tag looking, well, the way it does. (see below) But now I see they have documentation attached to the add as well. Is there any way to verify NCRS documentation? Please share your thoughts. Oh, and on the thought of finding one at Barrett. The ones I reviewed went for much more than I was hoping. Going to have to search elsewhere...

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[Perry M.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

All I can add to this is that when I bought my '63 SWC back in 1980, I didn't know squat about numbers matching let alone correct finishes, correct fasteners, and all the other stuff that the JG guides say. All I knew was that I wanted an original fuel injected split window coupe. I am the second owner of just that, an original 39,000 mile car ( at least it was back in 1980 ). I keep it maintained but never changed or modified in any way. It now has 43,000 miles on the odometer. I consider myself very fortunate not to have to go through all the hassles some of you have gone through. Just saying.

[Michael J.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

Hello Dave,

I do not have a good picture of a trim or VIN tag. Research has been over the internet so far and I only have access to what is actually posted. I will try to get more specifics when I narrow things down. At the moment I will likely wait to see what I see at Barret Jackson Scottsdale. Search will likely resume after that.

Thanks,
Ed

I would suggest you narrow your selections down to '63s that have recent NCRS Regional or especially National judging sheets where the trim and VIN tags have been looked at closely by expert judges. That is the best inspection you could ever get, believe me. Good luck.

[Patrick B.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

I doubt that there is anything wrong with the VIN or the old NCRS award, but the transmission appears to be a 65 or 66 Muncie by the position and style of the of the date code. That should not be a deal breaker for an otherwise appealing car. A 66 Muncie is actually somewhat more robust that a 63 Muncie.

[James G.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

Just last week a friend that owns a 65 Glenn green coupe with Protecto plate discovered through new NCRS Shipping Data report the information was bogus. His trim and Vin tag and frame stamp certify the car is real. It came out of Pennsylvania via Texas. But we discovered with the new NCRS Shipping Data information it was sold new in Southern California.

I know of a famous 63 ZO-6 tanker race car where there are two cars with same vin. . One with the original frame, the other with the original tags.

Be careful out there and do your homework

[Dan A.]

Re: 63 Corvette VIN tag authenticity

now I see they have documentation attached to the add as well. Is there any way to verify NCRS documentation?.




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To answer your question. Yes there is. Scroll to the bottom of this page. In the center column click on Historic Document Service. On the new page scroll to the last item Car Award Confirmation Service. If you proceed from there be sitting down.