Judging manual confusion
The 1968-69 judging manual states that the engine ground strap is attached to the starter support bracket by the cad recessed head with captive split washer bolt and it is attached to the frame by a black plated bolt with a black plated nut. Both use a cad ext tooth washer. However the AIM states that both bolts are the same part number. Do you assemble the car as the judging manual states or as the AIM states.
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Re: Judging manual confusion
Joe, I would go with what you see, if you believe they are original why change the plating. No judge will deduct for plating of a few bolts.New England chapter member, 63 Convert. 327/340- Chapter/Regional/national Top Flight, 72 coupe- chapter and regional Top Flight. -
Re: Judging manual confusion
"No judge will deduct for plating of a few bolts.". I'm not sure that was the definitive answer that Joe was looking for, Ed. More likely, he was looking for a "final answer", once and for all to this question.Comment
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Re: Judging manual confusion
Joseph
"Engine Ground Strap" (Mechanical Section 19, page 165) is part of "Engine Mounts & Ground Strap" - 5 points Originality and 5 points Condition. If it was me for judging, I would assign 4 points for Mounts and 1 point for that ground strap. 1968-1969 TIM&JG, as you noted, states "black bolts". If you used a cad bolt (which it sounds like you DO NOT intend to do) that would be a C.D.C.I.F. "Finish" issue. Finish alone would indicate a 20% Originality deduction. In this case, 20% of 1 point or 2 tenths of a point.
"Starter Solenoid Heat Shield and Brace" (Chassis Section 4, page 203) has 3 points Originality and 2 points Condition. Assigning Solenoid Heat Shield 2 points and 1 point for the brace again gives a bolt C.D.C.I.F. "Finish" issue an Originality deduction of 2 tenths of a point. (Assigning 2 Originality points to that brace would yield 20% of 2 points or 4 tenths of a point.
Both these outcomes might warrant a comment (no point deduction) at best - back to Edward Johnson's response above.
e.g. Do what you like, you might show National Team Leader that JG vs A.I.M. discrepancy.
As to a "definitive answer" only Dave Brigham/NTL has that call.
DaveJudging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) ChapterComment
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Re: Judging manual confusion
I am not worried about points I am worried that the judging manual is not correct on many things. For example the bolt that the alternator pivots on with P/S is in the standards book as a grade 8 bolt. I have a 67 400 with P/S and a 69 435 with P/S both AIM's show the same part number for the pivot bolt and both my cars have an SBC cad plated grade 8 bolt but the judging manual says a grade 5 bolt. My point was if the AIM has the same part number for the bolts at each end of the cable how can they be 2 different bolts as stated in the judging manual.Comment
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Re: Judging manual confusion
I am not worried about points I am worried that the judging manual is not correct on many things. For example the bolt that the alternator pivots on with P/S is in the standards book as a grade 8 bolt. I have a 67 400 with P/S and a 69 435 with P/S both AIM's show the same part number for the pivot bolt and both my cars have an SBC cad plated grade 8 bolt but the judging manual says a grade 5 bolt. My point was if the AIM has the same part number for the bolts at each end of the cable how can they be 2 different bolts as stated in the judging manual.Comment
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Re: Judging manual confusion
Joseph
That's why we're on 5th Edition of JM.
I expect NTL has got a number of "we need to fix this next time" items in his notebook. Emphasis on any JG revisions, to me, would be on getting those high point areas right.
Reason you never change an original car to match a judging guide.
DaveJudging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) ChapterComment
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Re: Judging manual confusion
Mr. Aronne.
On behalf of the 6th Edition 68-69 TIM&JG Revision Team, I want to apologize for not meeting your expectations and not publishing a perfect judging reference manual.
That was never our intent. These manuals are a living, breathing, document. As time goes by, we see more cars, we judge more cars, we learn more, we make corrections to the manual, publish a new one. My copy of the 6th Edition manual is littered with red marks and comments. When the 6th Edition was published, we knew it was not perfect, but it was a whole lot better than 5th Edition.
If I can ask a favor of you please. When you find an error, or what you think is an error, PLEASE let us know the year of the car, engine and options. In this case, I had to read all the way through the thread to find it's a 69, 427-435 with power steering. The alternator mounting for a power steering car is totally different than a non-power steering car.
Non-Power Steering uses a 3792380 Bolt, 3/8-16 x 3-3/4" long, 280M which is a Grade 5. The 6th Edition TIM&JG is correct in this usage, Grade 5 zinc plated.
Power steering equipped cars use a 9418633 bolt, a 3/8-16 x 4-1/2" long, 300m, which is a Grade 8 bolt. My guess is all the extra pieces used for the power steering and alternator mounting, GM thought a Grade 8 bolt was needed. I'll update the file and make this change.
Your other issue was the ground strap that runs from the frame to the starter support brace, the bolts that secure it at both ends. It uses a 120228 bolt. None of my Standard Parts catalogs list this part number, so hopefully somebody will chime in and let us know what "the book" says.
Page 168 of the 6th Edition TIM&JG, Fig. M 19.5 shows the ground cable at the frame, near the motor mount. The bolt looks dark to me. In the next few weeks, I'll look at a very low mileage car and confirm if it's a zinc plated bolt or not.
If you find other items in the manual, bring them up. We do monitor the forum. We do keep track of the errors of our ways. I make a post once a year, so this is my alotment for the year....
Gary Bosselmann
68-69 6th Edition TIM&JG Manual Co-ordinator.Comment
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Re: Judging manual confusion
GM 120228 is 5/16-18 x 5/8 zinc
GM is very specific on their ground rules for fasteners. " Zinc Plating: On fasteners through which a direct electrical ground must be established, except underhood applications covered in Paragraph 3.3.1, zinc plating per GM 4342-M, code 20u32, specification shall be used" etc.Comment
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