Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

[Tim S.]

I am reinstalling my F.I. unit that has recently had an anti siphon valve added. After looking through what I could find for search results, it was suggested that it gets wired to keyed power on the fuse box. Is that indeed the best place and does it get dinged in judging (for interior or in any other respect)? I know the injection unit will not get a deduct.
Thanks,
Tim

[Dan H.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Tim, I have a Ken Hanson shut off valve, it is wired to the 12v side of the ballast resistor where the ignition switch wires are. I also put a solid brass plug where the original anti siphon valve was which rests against the cover plate in the fuel meter to prevent any chance of it blowing out. I've had the original valve blow it's ball check out, not a good thing for sure.
Dan

[Jim L.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Tim, your subject line includes "TI", as in Transistor Ignition. Is that what you meant or was it a typo for "FI"? If it was a typo, what Dan wrote is spot on, especially the part about replacing the internal check valve with a brass plug.

[Richard M.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Dan his is K66 TI so no ballast.

Ken,

There actually is no keyed IGN tap at the fuse panel, only ACC at either the radio or heater feed taps at the fuses themselves, using a adapter clip on the outer fuse clip.

Another option would be to tie it in to the hot side of the electric choke feed. 65 has that too, right?

Expect a slight deduct for it though.

I had a car alarm on my 59 tied to the Bat+ of the fuse panel and got a hit for that, disappointingly in 2008 at the Winter Regional.

Rich

[Tim S.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Tim, your subject line includes "TI", as in Transistor Ignition. Is that what you meant or was it a typo for "FI"? If it was a typo, what Dan wrote is spot on, especially the part about replacing the internal check valve with a brass plug.

Jim,

The car I'm working on is a T.I. car. Agreed, the ballast resistor is the easiest on the point type distributors.

Thanks,
Tim

[Jim L.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Dan his is K66 TI so no ballast.

Another option would be to tie it in to the hot side of the electric choke feed. 65 has that too, right?



Rich

All Sting Ray FI have a hot air tube thru the left exhaust manifold to warm the choke pull-off.

If Tim's car has TI, is there not an ignition-switched terminal at the TI amplifier where he could pick off 12V? (I don't know squat about TI... perhaps you can tell.)

[Tim S.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Dan his is K66 TI so no ballast.

Ken,

There actually is no keyed IGN tap at the fuse panel, only ACC at either the radio or heater feed taps at the fuses themselves, using a adapter clip on the outer fuse clip.

Another option would be to tie it in to the hot side of the electric choke feed. 65 has that too, right?

Expect a slight deduct for it though.

I had a car alarm on my 59 tied to the Bat+ of the fuse panel and got a hit for that, disappointingly in 2008 at the Winter Regional.

Rich

Rich, the choke is thermostatic on these units

Thanks,
Tim

[Tim S.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

After giving it some thought, I just pulled the power off of the lead that powers up the wiper motor. Thank you for the consideration!
Tim

[Richard M.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Rich, the choke is thermostatic on these units

Thanks,
Tim

Ok I wondered that. Last one I did was a '61 and it had the choke and points ignition so I tied my anti siphon solenoid valve to the input side of the ballast. I was going to add a relay but Jim convinced me it was overkill. He was right.

All Sting Ray FI have a hot air tube thru the left exhaust manifold to warm the choke pull-off.

If Tim's car has TI, is there not an ignition-switched terminal at the TI amplifier where he could pick off 12V? (I don't know squat about TI... perhaps you can tell.)

Ok.... got it now. Ize forgot.

So the issue with IGN power to TI is that it's inside the TI Harness, so cutting it open is not really an option. However, the IGN feed from the Ignition Switch comes out to a pair of Packard-56 blade terminals housed in the standard M/F plastic housings. Normally in a Points system this feed goes to the Ballast, but in TI the Ballast U-Terminal gets cut off and the blade goes in it's place. It plugs into the TI Harness. Can't really add a ASSV feed there without looking hoakily conspicuous.

There is however, a IGN Pink wire at the TI Distributor Pickup Coil connector, which is tied to IGN from the switch as well as the Solenoid R terminal at the starter. So technically you could tie into that for the ASSV, but, it's only a 18G wire and I would not put it there.

So Tim, I was at the Eye DR's office when I replied earlier but gave this more thought after I left. Putting it on the Brown ACC feed to the Wiper Motor has 3 issues:

1- It is not true IGNITION feed. IGN feeds ACC when KEY = RUN, but ACC goes OFF during Crank. Remember if Radio and Heater and Wipers are on before CRANK, they go OFF during CRANK, then when the Key goes back to RUN, they all light up again. So this means your ASSV will be deenergized/closed when you CRANK. So you can't do that.

3 - It is UNFUSED. Yes I know IGN to TI is unfused too but now you're adding another layer of potential fault creation with a high current solenoid.

My friend's '65 Fuelie had stock TI and I helped him restore it years ago. I'll go back and see if I can find some notes. We installed a ASSV on it then. Dave S. owns it now and if it's accessible maybe he could look under the hood for us. I forget what we did.

I know, it's a quandary, what to do. I'm going off for a coffee and think about this some more and re-enter later.

Rich

[Richard M.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Ok, So I'm thinking several ways....

Method 1
Connect the ASSV power lead to the Pink wire at the Solenoid R terminal. This is a 18G wire but I found some notes that the solenoid only draws a few amps so it should be fine. The only issue with this is that it'll be a long wire, so use a #16G. To keep it inconspicuous you could use black wire, and tuck it along the firewall plastic hood cable clips behind the harness. I would add a fuse or fusible link down at the R terminal to protect the wire up to the ASSV.

When you get to the heater fan motor area follow it down to the starter along with the Engine ground which goes to the heater motor and wiper motor. Use a ring terminal soldered to the wire at the end going to the starter solenoid R terminal, and add 2 layers of heat shrink before you solder the terminal on. I would wrap some Red electrical tape as a telltale it's 12V at the end for the next guy when he's tracing circuits.

Solder the upper end to a solenoid black wire(no polarity on those). The other solenoid wire goes to ground, which you likely already have done.

Method 2
Connect the ASSV power lead to the Pink wire connector at the junction of the IGN power to TI harness power plug(white resistor wire). There exists a "piggyback" connector for this. It looks like the piggyback connector on the A31 Power WIndow harness.

Like this, circled in Yellow. Your ASSV power wire would connect into the upper left as pictured, then the IGN Pink lead and the mating TI harness lead would plug into the other two positions.

I did some basic hunting for this piggyback connector but came up empty so this may not be feasible.
PiggybackConnector.jpg

Method 3
Connect the ASSV power lead to the Pink wire connector pair at the junction of the IGN power to TI harness power plug(white resistor wire) with your own "piggyback" connector from a brass "flag" lead from a old Radio Capacitor terminal, or make your own from a small piece of flat brass stock the width of a male blade terminal.

Put some heat shrink over the solder junction and any exposed brass. Extend the ASSV power wire and solder it to the brass flag lead. Insert this brass flag lead into the above power plug(the female terminal just like the radio capacitor flags, which gets inserted into the connector then plugged over a gauge terminal.
Like this...
CapacitorFlag.jpg

Personally I like all 3 methods, but method 3 may be the easiest. No matter what, there will likely be some deductions for extra wiring in the car, not to mention the ASSV itself. I'm unsure what is typically hit in a case like this.

Rich

[Richard M.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Tim, I hope you got my note from me about NOT using the Brown(Accessory) wiper motor tap. It has NO power during Crank.

Here's a diagram I got across the street at CF from Jack(65GGvert) that he and some folks modified for TI usage. I just did a few of my own mods with notes about the ASSV on a TI car.

Note: Our filesize limits make it hard to read here but go across the street over THERE and you can click on it and zoom for better view and print.

Rich

66_67_wiring_diagram_with_ti_RM_Mod_Rev1.1_.jpg

[Tim S.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Thanks Rich. Obviously a bit more involved than a car with a ballast resistor. It does beg the question, does the ballast resistor have power during cranking? The coil is getting battery voltage from the R terminal on the starter at that point.

FWIW, the car did fired up and ran pulling power off of the wiper motor

[Richard M.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Thanks Rich. Obviously a bit more involved than a car with a ballast resistor. It does beg the question, does the ballast resistor have power during cranking? The coil is getting battery voltage from the R terminal on the starter at that point.

FWIW, the car did fired up and ran pulling power off of the wiper motor

Yes because the ballast input gets power via the Ignition switch also. When Key to CRANK, the switch internally also connects BAT+/CRANK to IGN. If the ballast is open the car would die at Key CRANK to RUN as it loses the Solenoid R voltage direct to coil+ during CRANK.

I'd guess there was enough fuel vapor sitting in the inlet manifold and as soon as it fired off, key to RUN, ACC now had power to let the fuel flow. If your fuel meter was dry and tried it at first startup, it couldn't run. Either that or you have a defective ASSV and it's stuck open, which I'd be surprised.

Pull the TI AMP Plug or TI Distributor 2 pin plug apart. Turn your wipers on and CRANK.

Or put a test light on the Brown wire at wipers and CRANK.

What happens to the wipers, or test lamp?

Rich

[Tony S.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

Tim, I have a Ken Hanson shut off valve, it is wired to the 12v side of the ballast resistor where the ignition switch wires are. I also put a solid brass plug where the original anti siphon valve was which rests against the cover plate in the fuel meter to prevent any chance of it blowing out. I've had the original valve blow it's ball check out, not a good thing for sure.
Dan

Hi Dan. Unfortunately, A TI car doesn't have a ballast resistor. Tim, you'll need to hook up the shut off to a 12V a different power source.
Tony

[Jim L.]

Re: Anti-siphon installation, T.I., and judging

I'd guess there was enough fuel vapor sitting in the inlet manifold and as soon as it fired off, key to RUN, ACC now had power to let the fuel flow. If your fuel meter was dry and tried it at first startup, it couldn't run. Either that or you have a defective ASSV and it's stuck open, which I'd be surprised.

An anti-siphon solenoid valve which has failed open won't prevent an FI engine from starting. Quite the opposite. The engine will start TOO easily.... if it doesn't bend a rod first.