TDB participation

[George J.]

Re: TDB participation

George,

If changes occur to our website shell it will be for several administrative reasons. Reason is that the costs, both monetary costs and volunteer effort(energy) costs could be reduced by changing it. We rely on volunteers to administer the site and their job is extremely difficult at times. What started as a simple process years ago, evolved into a very time consuming effort for a very small group of our IT supporter staff.

We don't see the efforts involved, only the resultant shell that we come to when we visit. It's a tremendous effort to create, maintain, and in particular, to modify it when updates are needed and new applications are required.

For example, we don't have a "Mobile" version any longer. It became news to me recently, that when updates happen, we actually have to pay fees to activate these changes. These fees are required for both Apple and Android Apps Stores. This gets expensive, so the Mobile version has been discontinued.

We will have to try to accept what the management team recommends, implements, and supports for our site software. We may not like it, but we'll get used to it.... if and when it should happen.

Rich

Rich,
thank you. I understand that it takes a tremendous effort from the admins, and am very, very grateful. I just hope that whatever changes happen, they don't make people leave. That is what we are trying to avoid. Maybe the changes could be vetted, no pun intended, here, before being implemented. Even if it was a small, hand picked, focus group.
And THANK YOU!! to all those who work on this site.

George

[Duke W.]

Re: TDB participation

Regarding the Corvette Forum, especially the C1/2 board the quality of the discussion IMO has severely degraded over the last several years, and most of the "old hands" have departed, leaving very few really knowledgeable people. Though I no longer post there, I look at it one in a while and just shake my head.

Many simple "problems" that people post can be solved by simply looking in applicable service manuals, yet within 24 hours there are at least a dozen one or two sentence posts with six different "solutions" all of which may be wrong.

New owners of vintage Corvettes at the CF appear to know little about them or even little about automotive technology. In a recent post a new owner asked if the clutch release bearing could be changed without removing the bell housing.

The old myths and misinformation keep coming up... "they took all the zink out of oil" and others, and questions asked and answered multiple times over the last 25 years keep getting posted because few seem to use the search function before posting.

Then there are questions about NCRS judging from what appear to be NCRS members. Why would they ask NCRS judging questions on the CF rather than here?

Another thing is that we use our real names rather than some "handle". That may not be a big deal to many, but I feel better connected to real names rather than handles.

I could go on, but the bottom line is that if you want quality advice from knowledgeable and experienced vintage aficionados, the TDB is the placed to go, but some just don't get it.

Maybe NCRS should run ads on the CF lauding the benefits of NCRS membership and the TDB.

Duke

[Owen L.]

Re: TDB participation

Many simple "problems" that people post can be solved by simply looking in applicable service manuals, yet within 24 hours there are at least a dozen one or two sentence posts with six different "solutions" all of which may be wrong.

New owners of vintage Corvettes at the CF appear to know little about them or even little about automotive technology. In a recent post a new owner asked if the clutch release bearing could be changed without removing the bell housing.
...

I could go on, but the bottom line is that if you want quality advice from knowledgeable and experienced vintage aficionados, the TDB is the placed to go, but some just don't get it.

Duke,
I've had continuous C2 ownership since 1977 and have little idea what's required to change the throw-out bearing other than separating the engine and trans by some method or another. Of course I could look it up in the service manual but sometimes hearing the basics on how it's done from forum members goes a long way to provide direction and experiential advice. If we send the message that the first stop is to look up answers in manuals or archives, rather than make a forum post, we would adding to the decline in participation traffic, weakening community.

Perhaps the TDB should be the first stop for authoritative advice but reality seems to show me that many of the experts do not participate here either. This goes back to the fact that many officers and leaders are absent.

Owen

[Leif A.]

Re: TDB participation

Duke,
I've had continuous C2 ownership since 1977 and have little idea what's required to change the throw-out bearing other than separating the engine and trans by some method or another. Of course I could look it up in the service manual but sometimes hearing the basics on how it's done from forum members goes a long way to provide direction and experiential advice. If we send the message that the first stop is to look up answers in manuals or archives, rather than make a forum post, we would adding to the decline in participation traffic, weakening community.

Perhaps the TDB should be the first stop for authoritative advice but reality seems to show me that many of the experts do not participate here either. This goes back to the fact that many officers and leaders are absent.

Owen

Owen,
You just said a mouthful...and, I agree.

[Mark E.]

Re: TDB participation

NCRS TDB should play to its unique strength. Instead of directly competing with the free forums offering questionable advice from anonymous contributors with silly avatars, offer real expert advice from real experts you can also PM.
Yes, it costs to participate but the value is the best $60 spent during a restoration.

What needs to change to do this? As suggested above, Team Leads and other judging officials need to regularly contribute content and respond to threads. Make this part of their role description and set contribution expectations.

When the TDB builds its reputation as THE source for expert Corvette restoration advice, NCRS may decide to make access exclusive to members. That's an exclusive benefit that should drive membership.

But alas, neither Dave or anyone else in a leadership role follows this forum, so all of this falls to deaf ears.

[Duke W.]

Re: TDB participation

Duke,
Of course I could look it up in the service manual but sometimes hearing the basics on how it's done from forum members goes a long way to provide direction and experiential advice. If we send the message that the first stop is to look up answers in manuals or archives, rather than make a forum post, we would adding to the decline in participation traffic, weakening community.


Owen

A couple of years ago in response to a question on the CF I responded that the answer was in the applicable CSM and suggested that he buy one. He responded that he had one, but didn't think to look in it. Can you say duuuuuh!

At that point I began to question if I was wasting my time on the CF, and I quit participating not long after.

I've also recommended many times on the CF that new owners buy all the applicable service manuals, AIM, and download the applicable "vehicle information package" from www.gmheritage.com and consider joining NCRS, especially if they are interested in having their car judged.

I'm happy to help out those who have a basic understanding of automotive technology and basic tools and equipment to at least do basic maintenance, trouble-shooting, and simple repairs and are willing to buy the readily available and relatively inexpensive GM service documentation, but I'm too old to spend what time I have left spoon feeding those who won't lift a finger to educate themselves and just run to the internet for every question. Those types would be better off finding another hobby because the advice they receive is often questionable if not outright wrong.

The lack to technical moderation on the CF is a weakness that is a strength on the TDB. There are a lot of tyros on the CF who recently bought a vintage Corvette. They don't seem to know much about them, and probably bought because of the "mystique" of these great vintage cars and can afford the admission price. They also may not have much, if any, hands on experience, but since these are simple analog cars they are relatively easy to diagnose problems when you have the factory docs, and some basic tools and equipment or a neighbor or buddy does, and things like alternators, starter motors, distributors, and carburetors are easy to remove and overhaul for guys with some hands-on experience working on cars, but the younger the person, the less likely they are to have that experience

It's getting tough to find mechanics who really understand these cars and can competently work on them. Case in point: there have been several internet posts that go something like... my "mechanic" or "engine builder" says I should have "ported" vacuum advance. The trouble with these guys is that most were born or came of age after the beginning of exhaust emission control era and don't understand that ported vacuum advance was implemented on emission controlled engines to increase EGT in order to oxidize HC and CO with injected air and later catalysts, and reduced cruise advance deceases "engine out" NOx due to lowering peak combustion temperature from about 4500F to 4000F or less. That's why spark advance maps for emission controlled engines are significantly retarded under all operating conditions relative to pre-emission controlled engine.

I think the first thing NCRS should do to improve TDB traffic is have a permanent ad in the front of every issue of "The Drivetrain" to laud the benefits of TDB participation to attract more NCRS members to the TDB and ultimately runs ads in places like the Corvette Forum. I can't imagine a guy who would pay a high five figure or even six figure price for a vintage Corvette and then not spend up to a few hundred bucks for documentation, and 60 bucks a year for NCRS support, but there are plenty of cheap morons out there.
Case in point, The Cosworth Vega Owner's Association (down to about 250 members, but still healthy). When I was regional director for Southern California back in the last half of the nineties I started a number of parts programs in my region, many of which went national. One was timing belts that were no longer commercially available. I talked Goodyear into making a small batch for the club at a reasonable price. We funded the program by getting members to prepay for a belt with a small markup on the unit price, like about ten or 15 percent, to cover shipping and a little for the club treasury. It worked out great!

So one day I get a call from a guy up in the central valley and he wants to buy a timing belt. I asked him if he was a member of the club. he said no, he didn't want to join the club just to buy a timing belt. I recall back then annual club dues were about 25 bucks and the belts were 50 bucks. So I told him the club was the only source I knew of for belts for the 3508 Cosworth Vega that were built over 20 years before and repeated that he'd have to join the club for at least a year to buy a belt, and he could also buy other parts that were only available from the club (many of which I arranged to be part of the national parts program) like air filters (a Baldwin from a Clark Equipment forklift), fuel filters (Bendix manufactured, and they had enough left over parts for about 50 (Originally designed for the two-speed torque converter automatic transmission in a forties/fifties vintage GM Diesel "old look" city transit coach if you can believe that!), and a 16-piece EFI and other o-rings and seals kit (from a local aerospace O-ring supplier.)

At this point he started getting a bit surely, and I realized that I was dealing with a cheap jerk and said if he couldn't afford to pay 25 bucks for a privilege of buying a belt and other parts he should sell the Cosworth Vega to someone who could and buy a Nova and ended the conversation.

I recall (wish remember who it was) a published statement from a known automotive writer who wrote if you have a vintage car without a club you're (in so many words) "down the river", but some guys just don't get it.

Duke

[Jack M.]

Re: TDB participation

I disagree that we are our own worst enemy by posting on CF rather than attempting to hold all knowledge within the walls of NCRS. I believe it's that type of mindset that leads the general Corvette community to see the NCRS as a bunch of secretive elitists. Providing information from knowledge or even the judging guides builds community and helps dispel the notion of the snobbish NCRS. The threads offering specific restoration detail is often accompanied by recommendations to get the applicable judging guide. These sorts of replies also allow the readers to see the quality and detail of the guides and, by default, the organization.

I respectfully disagree with your negative characterizations and assessments, and stand by my comments.
Out of reverence for RM, I'll keep my reply fairly civil, and simply address just one point in particular...
Why is it OK for any TIM&JG Copyright notation, to be blatantly disregarded?
NCRS_Copyright.jpg

I honestly don't see all these 'helped' CF members, flocking to join the NCRS... it appearz to be a failing idea.
Sometimes, old sayingz can make you go... hummm. I wonder if this one applies here:
"Help someone when they're in trouble, and they'll remember you when they're in trouble again."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy CF as a place to socialize, with occasional technical help... but the TIM&JG should be OFF LIMITS.
I don't see Tesla/GM/IBM/etc handing over their trade secrets for free... does that make them secretive elitist snobs?
The NCRS is both a hobby and business. By handing out the 'store', who are we helping... who are we hurting?

[Owen L.]

Re: TDB participation

Jack,
My negative characterizations of the NCRS are nonetheless true amongst a segment of Corvette owners; I'm sure there are others here who have seen this.

As to the copyright of the judging guides (and any other publication), I agree, reproduction of the material is protected. However, directly quoting and paraphrasing content is not reproducing it, is not protected, and is not enforceable as a copyright violation. Quoting in all likelihood falls under the fair use doctrine of US copyright and paraphrasing is protected speech. Even uploading portions of a publication itself may be legal for education, commentary, and criticism.

I believe sharing information with a person who wants to know a restoration detail will eventually lead to them needing more info than a back and forth thread can offer and they'll eventually seek out the guide itself if they seriously want to do it right. (No guarantees they'll become a member since all sorts of NCRS publications are available on eBay.)

[Joseph W.]

Re: TDB participation

I respectfully disagree with your negative characterizations and assessments, and stand by my comments.
Out of reverence for RM, I'll keep my reply fairly civil, and simply address just one point in particular...
Why is it OK for any TIM&JG Copyright notation, to be blatantly disregarded?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]121960[/ATTACH]

I honestly don't see all these 'helped' CF members, flocking to join the NCRS... it appearz to be a failing idea.
Sometimes, old sayingz can make you go... hummm. I wonder if this one applies here:
"Help someone when they're in trouble, and they'll remember you when they're in trouble again."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy CF as a place to socialize, with occasional technical help... but the TIM&JG should be OFF LIMITS.
I don't see Tesla/GM/IBM/etc handing over their trade secrets for free... does that make them secretive elitist snobs?
The NCRS is both a hobby and business. By handing out the 'store', who are we helping... who are we hurting?

I just want to say that Elon Musk is on the record saying all of his software code and other information for Tesla is readily available and free to any other manufacturers. But I get what you are saying..
Obviously Tesla is the exception.

I’d like to see a restoration section where we can follow others restorations.
Stan Falenski is on Facebook and he details what he’s doing along with vendors and tips and tricks.
I’ve learned a lot from his FB page.
I really dislike the off topic and P&R section of the CF as it adds static to the site. In other words it waters down the content.

What I really like about this site is the high value content.

[Jack M.]

Re: TDB participation

Jack,
My negative characterizations of the NCRS are nonetheless true amongst a segment of Corvette owners; I'm sure there are others here who have seen this.

Owen-
My negative characterizations of your actions are nonetheless true amongst a segment of Corvette owners...
I'm sure there are others here, who have seen this.

Did that statement make you/anyone the least bit uncomfortable?
According to your explanation, it shouldn't matter that I used your wordz as my own.
It was a fair use educational exercise and critique, right... or was it simply misguided logic?

Please don't get me wrong... you have MANY positive traits, and I enjoy most of your insightful and intellectual posts.
Unfortunately, I believe SOME of your actions are detrimental to the NCRS... and others agree with me.
No sense polluting this thread with additional back-n-forth debate... nobody wins.
I doubt I can sway you, and you've failed to convince me that directly posting TIM&JG info is beneficial to the NCRS.

Indeed, I tend to be loyal, but I don't follow blindly... and we all see some deficiencies in our wonderful Club.
If you'd like any additional respectful dialogue, feel free to contact me via forum email or PM.
Get to know me before you categorize me as a secretive elitist snob.
I challenge you to explore that possibility.

[Jack M.]

Re: TDB participation

I just want to say that Elon Musk is on the record saying all of his software code and other information for Tesla is readily available and free to any other manufacturers. But I get what you are saying..
Obviously Tesla is the exception.

I honestly don't know much about Tesla, so I could be mistaken with my comment. Wasn't there a recent story where Tesla is looking to 'license' their self driving technology to other vehicle manufacturers? If it was TOTALLY FREE to be taken, whatz the need of the proposed licensing?
No need to reply... itz really not that important.

[Harry S.]

Re: TDB participation

Way to go Jack, nicely done!

Owen-
My negative characterizations of your actions are nonetheless true amongst a segment of Corvette owners...
I'm sure there are others here, who have seen this.

Did that statement make you/anyone the least bit uncomfortable?
According to your explanation, it shouldn't matter that I used your wordz as my own.
It was a fair use educational exercise and critique, right... or was it simply misguided logic?

Please don't get me wrong... you have MANY positive traits, and I enjoy most of your insightful and intellectual posts.
Unfortunately, I believe SOME of your actions are detrimental to the NCRS... and others agree with me.
No sense polluting this thread with additional back-n-forth debate... nobody wins.
I doubt I can sway you, and you've failed to convince me that directly posting TIM&JG info is beneficial to the NCRS.

Indeed, I tend to be loyal, but I don't follow blindly... and we all see some deficiencies in our wonderful Club.
If you'd like any additional respectful dialogue, feel free to contact me via forum email or PM.
Get to know me before you categorize me as a secretive elitist snob.
I challenge you to explore that possibility.

[Mark F.]

Re: TDB participation

I have no experience producing ads, but I thought I’d take a shot at something to throw darts at

NCRS Technical Resources AD.jpg

[Don H.]

Re: TDB participation

I like that ad a lot Mark.

[Richard M.]

Re: TDB participation

Agree with you Don. Mark, nicely done. I really like that.

One minor addition? Add a plus sign(+) after the "50" in "...been around for 50 years !"

Rich