What... My engine is wrong?

[William C.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

"I" is very definately used in castings, just not in stamped numbers (Primarily Delco-Remy) items.

[Richard M.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Rod....David is correct. The letter "I" was used to designate September, so "L" is truly December......Sorry, about the emotional roller-coaster but it appears your block is what it is........however...........

Maybe it's possible, just slightly possible, that the calender is not as accurate as it appears to be. Maybe your car was built AFTER Dec 20th! This was around the Holidays, so maybe, just maybe it was close. Also, who is to say that the car didn't sit around waiting for a engine swap or something, and in reality went out the door later than what is being "estimated" for the car build date.

I think what you need to do is find some documented cars built around that time, and triangulate around them to discover engine assy to car build dates.

I don't want to try to prolong the anguish you may be feeling, but if it doesn't work out, you know the alternatives.

Just a longshot..........Rich

[Rod M.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

OK guys, I'm hear what your saying, however I was reading from the NCRS recommend books list. THE COMPLETE CORVETTE RESTORATION & TECHNICAL GUIDE - VOL.1 1953 - 1962 by Nolan Adams

Section IV Page 392

"The major parts of the corvette are dated, engine blocks, cylinder heads, intake manifolds and transmissions cases have part numbers and dates CAST into them.......Assembly dates are also stamped on data plates, on the generator, starter, distributor and radiator......."

Quote; "the date coding was alphabetical, the letter "I" being omitted because it to closely resembled a "1" - the resulting code as follows: A= January; B= February; C= March; D = April; F= May; G=July; H=August; J=September; K=October; L=November; M=December"

Here is a following 2nd example listed in the book below this entry;

....engine casting number K300 (October 30th 1960),.......Left Head date K180 (October 18th, 1960)......

There is no mention in the book as to manufacturing location of the block making the date any different?

It appears there is a casting date AND an Assembly date as some suggested.

In my example the CASTING date is L2 60 (it appears there is a little large space between the 2 and 6). So according to Nolan this a November 26th 1960 block.

Now, this book might be wrong since its publication, or I'm mis- understanding the writting for C1 vettes, however its very confussing if you read and belive what the book says.

I'm going mad

[Gary C.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Rod, might help to clarify if you posted the VIN. Example would be VIN 123X. JMTCW, Gary....

[Rod M.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Sorry, I posted the Vin # 10867S104098 in my first post. There pad stamp on the block is quite different.

TI209D

T as in Tom
I as in Indian
209
D as in David

[William C.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Unfortunately, the book Noland wrote is now about 20+ years old, and has not been updated. You have found one of several errors in the book, A fine reference to be sure, but not 100% accurate by any means.

[Rod M.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

WOW I'm a rookie and new to this whole process of NCRS and learing something new every day. Talk about a blow.. I was under the impression this book was almost biblical.

Can you please direct me to other publicaitons or written documentation that support the "I" being used for date codes on blocks for C1's I realize the judges make the points decsions based on facts, and it would be valuble for me to make sure I follow the correct documents, before investing down the wrong path. I have lots to learn.... thanks

[David K.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Lets look at the dates again. A block cast in the Towanada, New York plant would be cast L260 meaning, as you think Nov.2, 1960. Now, if the block was cast at the Saginaw, Mich. plant it would be cast L260, meaning Nov.26, 1960. The Towanada plant dating, would use the last two digits of the year in it's date casting. Saginaw would only use the last digit of the year in it's date casting. In a small block Corvette, all blocks were cast in Saginaw and assy. in Flint. That means the date in the front pad showing the assy for a Flint built engine would read like this, F1209D. The "F" standing for Flint, the 12 standing for the month(Dec) and the 09 standing for the day of the month. The "D" is a code telling us what horsepower and car, the engine was originally built and installed in. The cast date we studied earlier, has already told us what year it was cast, so we can assume what model year the engine was made for. If there is a "T" at the begining, it means the engine was built at the Towanada plant. I hope this helps.

[Gary C.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Rod, recommend the 61-2 Judging Reference Manual. Page 43-45 explains the use of I and other important information about the block cast date and pad stamping. The cast date code of L260 is read as Dec 2nd, 1960. The T1209D stamp on the pad indicates a Tonawanda block and therefore the two digit (60) date code. Only Flint engine blocks were used in Corvettes. A Flint block would be F1209D and have a cast date of L20. Gary....

[Rod M.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

This was a very good reply and clear as to the year of the blocks casting numbers all being 1960.

Now you are saying that the letter "L" in the date code =November? There are many here who say L= December (i.e why I referenced the Nolan Adams book that says to omit "I" in castings).

Now since I have a pad stamp of T1209D (T as in Towanda, is the second digit an "I" as in indian or the number 1? I took a magnifiying glass to the number and the top and bottom of this second digit look identical as the letter "I". It makes more sense as a numbrer 1.

So here is the final take on this discovery if this truley is a Towanda made bock.

L 2 60 date code with T1209D means the following;

L = December

2 = 2nd day

60 = 1960 year.

T=Towanda

12 = December

09 = 9th day

D = orginal HP and car.

Are there any other markings or judging reference point on the block that tell us it Towanda? Or is it the casting number space pattern that tells us?

If the date code is correct but the mfg location is Towanda, should I not rebuild this engine for the corvette? Major investment going down the drain.

BTW - I just purchased everything on NCRS store that is used for 61 vettes. I will get to the bottom of this mystery.

[Gary C.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

Rod, no mistery here. Sorry, but Tonanwanda blocks were not used in Corvettes until 1965 big blocks if my memory serves me correctly. The alpha letter "I" was often used for date stamps in place of the number "1". The cast date alpha "L" is definetely a Dec cast date. No, I wouldn't rebuild and install a Tonanwanda block as it is not correct for your car. As an earlier post stated your recourse is to go back to the seller if the block was stated as being correct for your car, then it was misrepresented. The "D" suffix indicates the block was used in a pass. car with powerglide. Regards, Gary....

[Chuck S.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

...No, I wouldn't rebuild and install a Tonanwanda block as it is not correct for your car...

Gary makes the right call, Rod. I vaguely remember someone here discussing the physical differences in the two castings. Since the Tonawanda block is the not the original block configuration, the block would fail to make the JRM's first judging hurtle, i.e. correct casting number and configuration. This would indicate a full deduct for the engine, so there is no point in rebuilding that one.

It's possible the seller was no more knowledgeable than you about the block, and did not intend fraud. He may have asked a vendor for a correct block, and that's what he was sold.

Except for that one little detail, the casting date and build date would be near optimum replacement for your car for judging. The way I read the JRM, a Flint block with those dates would lose only pad stamp points at the third judging level.

Depending on what you paid for the car, he may owe you some money back.

[Rob M.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

The 1 and I's were often interchanged in on the stamp pads...

[Mike B.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

My bets were that it is a Tonawanda block based on the date casting and pad stamp, but if you look at his other post, Rod reports that he has the 1/8" square plug behind the water pump. It has been my understanding that those were only machined into Saginaw (Flint) blocks.

Is that true? If so, what takes precedence? No wonder he is going crazy!

Also, I suggest that someone double check the car build date using different references since the dates of the car and engine are so close as to cause speculation. Perhaps the Wisconsin birthday calculator is in error by a few very important days.

[William C.]

Re: What... My engine is wrong?

You will find answers to most of the questions you have regarding your car in the 1958-60 NCRS Technical manual and Judging Guide, available from the store linked at the top of this page. The material is regularly updated (not as often as some would want, but this is a volunteer hobby organization) and the information is much more current than some other references. I always encourage new car owners to start with the judging Guide and the assembly manuals for the car they own, then expand the library into other reference materials. The Tonawanda block is not considered a correct item from a judging perspective as Corvettes did not use blocks from any foundry other than Saginaw in the 58-60 era.