What is the hardest to get part?

[Dan P.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Was it You? Think I bought it from an NCRS member on fleabay - it's nicely restored - beautiful work. And the dates line-up perfectly for the car's July 1 build date. Tough carb to find, that's for sure.

[Dale C.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Dan
Good luck in your search. Just remember as we all keep telling ourselves, the joy is in the hunt. Why is that starter so hard to find and couldn't John help? I got my somewhat hard to find 750 generator from Piper's
Dale

[Mark D.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Why is that starter so hard to find and couldn't John help?

I would say a real 351 is THE toughest starter in the history of earth to score. I'll bet Pirkle has a slew of folks in line for one of those.

[Joe L.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

I would say a real 351 is THE toughest starter in the history of earth to score. I'll bet Pirkle has a slew of folks in line for one of those.

Mark------


There's a very good reason for that, too. As far as I can tell, the only PRODUCTION applications for the 1108351 starter across all GM car lines was 1967-69 L-88 and, possibly, 1970 ZR-1. It's also possible that 1971-72 ZR-1 used it, but I think it's more likely that those years used the 1108381.

The reason for the rarity of the 1108351 starter is that it's a "high torque" (i.e. 10MT) starter configured for use with a 153 tooth flywheel. By the time this starter came into use, there were few GM applications using a 153 tooth flywheel AND requiring a "high torque" starter. In fact, the only ones were L-88 and, possibly, ZR-1.

The 1108351 was available in SERVICE for only a very short period---from about April, 1969 until July, 1970. At that time it was replaced by the 1108381. There must have been very few in GMSPO inventory since they sure wouldn't have been selling very many starters for these applications in the above-referenced time period and, apparently, whatever stock they had still ran out very quickly.

So, it's most likely that there were never more than about 250 of these starters ever manufactured.

Now, all of the above really only applies to "numbers". As I've stated a jillion times before, it would be extremely easy to build up a starter to be IDENTICAL in external and internal configuration to the 1108351 EXCEPT for "numbers". When someone pays BIG $$$$ for a starter like this, all they're really buying is a starter frame with certain "numbers" on it. Everything else about a starter that could be easily built up would be the same.

So, what about the other "high torque", 153 tooth flywheel starters of the period? Well, these were the 1108352 used for 1965 L-78 and, possibly, some 1967 L-88 and the 1108381 which may have been used for 1971-72 ZR-1 if the 1108351 was not. These are rare, too. However, there were at least several thousand of the 1108352 manufactured for PRODUCTION and SERVICE. The 1108381 is another story, if it was actually used in PRODUCTION for 1971-72 ZR-1, then that was it's ONLY application. It was available in SERVICE for several years, though.

So, how do the 1108351, 1108352 and 1108381 differ other than stamped part number? You've got me. ALL of the component parts of each starter are identical.

[Dan P.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Mark------


There's a very good reason for that, too. As far as I can tell, the only PRODUCTION applications for the 1108351 starter across all GM car lines was 1967-69 L-88 and, possibly, 1970 ZR-1. It's also possible that 1971-72 ZR-1 used it, but I think it's more likely that those years used the 1108381.

The reason for the rarity of the 1108351 starter is that it's a "high torque" (i.e. 10MT) starter configured for use with a 153 tooth flywheel. By the time this starter came into use, there were few GM applications using a 153 tooth flywheel AND requiring a "high torque" starter. In fact, the only ones were L-88 and, possibly, ZR-1.

The 1108351 was available in SERVICE for only a very short period---from about April, 1969 until July, 1970. At that time it was replaced by the 1108381. There must have been very few in GMSPO inventory since they sure wouldn't have been selling very many starters for these applications in the above-referenced time period and, apparently, whatever stock they had still ran out very quickly.

So, it's most likely that there were never more than about 250 of these starters ever manufactured.

Now, all of the above really only applies to "numbers". As I've stated a jillion times before, it would be extremely easy to build up a starter to be IDENTICAL in external and internal configuration to the 1108351 EXCEPT for "numbers". When someone pays BIG $$$$ for a starter like this, all they're really buying is a starter frame with certain "numbers" on it. Everything else about a starter that could be easily built up would be the same.

So, what about the other "high torque", 153 tooth flywheel starters of the period? Well, these were the 1108352 used for 1965 L-78 and, possibly, some 1967 L-88 and the 1108381 which may have been used for 1971-72 ZR-1 if the 1108351 was not. These are rare, too. However, there were at least several thousand of the 1108352 manufactured for PRODUCTION and SERVICE. The 1108381 is another story, if it was actually used in PRODUCTION for 1971-72 ZR-1, then that was it's ONLY application. It was available in SERVICE for several years, though.

So, how do the 1108351, 1108352 and 1108381 differ other than stamped part number? You've got me. ALL of the component parts of each starter are identical.

Joe - Based on studying GM parts manuals, I believe you are correct. The 381 starters are specified for service replacement on ZR1's. In fact, I have a 351 unit ('71 dated) on John Pirkle's bench for use on the ZR1 - at least until I find a "real" 351 starter at a reasonable price (using the term "reasonable" loosely).

[Joe L.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Joe - Based on studying GM parts manuals, I believe you are correct. The 381 starters are specified for service replacement on ZR1's. In fact, I have a 351 unit ('71 dated) on John Pirkle's bench for use on the ZR1 - at least until I find a "real" 351 starter at a reasonable price (using the term "reasonable" loosely).

Dan-----


I'm not clear on this. Are you saying that you have a '351' with a 1971 date out for rebuild or do you mean you have a '381" with a 1971 date out for rebuild?

[Dan P.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Dan-----


I'm not clear on this. Are you saying that you have a '351' with a 1971 date out for rebuild or do you mean you have a '381" with a 1971 date out for rebuild?

I stand corrected - it's the 381. I know it's not what is widely believed to be used on '70 ZR1's but I'd rather have a starter spec'd for the ZR1 than a randomly numbered unit. BTW, Pirkle states that the 381 IS the "correct" starter for ZR1's, in addition to the 351. I believe he's a master judge as well, so figured I'd take his word on it - so hope he's one of the judges looking my car over when the time comes...

[Joe L.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

I stand corrected - it's the 381. I know it's not what is widely believed to be used on '70 ZR1's but I'd rather have a starter spec'd for the ZR1 than a randomly numbered unit. BTW, Pirkle states that the 381 IS the "correct" starter for ZR1's, in addition to the 351. I believe he's a master judge as well, so figured I'd take his word on it - so hope he's one of the judges looking my car over when the time comes...

Dan------


I think John's correct on the ZR-1 starter usage. I think it's possible that 1970 ZR-1's did use the 1108351. However, I think that 1971-72 would have used the 1108381.

As I previously mentioned, the 1108351 was discontinued from SERVICE in July, 1970. I doubt very much that it continued to be manufactured for PRODUCTION after that time and, likely, manufacture of it ended well prior to July, 1970.

It's possible, of course, that St. Louis had an inventory of '351' starters that were drawn on for 1971-72 ZR-1's. They sure wouldn't have been using these starters for any other application. If so, though, I would expect the 1971-72 starters to have had 1970 dates.

[Dan P.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Joe-

My experience in ferreting out HD starters is that I've never seen a 351 starter with a date prior to late '69.

The only 381 starters I've seen have been dated Q1 '71 or later. Doesn't mean they don't exist though.

I'd be curious to know what starters documented ZR1's have, and how they corollate to date. THe starter that came on my ZR1 is a 1108427 with aluminum nose, late '69 date, and looks like it's been on the car as long as anything else but is obviously must be a replacement.

[Don S.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Roy Braatz has it right. I have been looking for 1955 vacuum advance 1106098 for 15 years-- just not around. Grossmueller (who bought and sold 53-55 parts all of his life) told me he had only seen 2 ever. (he has since passed on) There are probably lots of them up there if he is heaven.

[Joe L.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

Roy Braatz has it right. I have been looking for 1955 vacuum advance 1106098 for 15 years-- just not around. Grossmueller (who bought and sold 53-55 parts all of his life) told me he had only seen 2 ever. (he has since passed on) There are probably lots of them up there if he is heaven.

Don------


I can find no record that GM #1106098 was EVER a SERVICE-available part. So, if it existed, it would have to have been a PRODUCTION-only piece.

[Don S.]

Re: joe lucia part #

Joe- i made a typo the number is 1116098 Roy had it right. I still do not think it was a service part. I have seen one on a car. The car was not for sale.

[Joe L.]

Re: joe lucia part #

Joe- i made a typo the number is 1116098 Roy had it right. I still do not think it was a service part. I have seen one on a car. The car was not for sale.

Don------



GM #1116098 was never available in SERVICE, either. At least, it was never available through the GM parts system. It might have been available through the Delco parts system but I highly doubt it.

[Sal C.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

The starter that came on my '70 ZR1 was an 1108351 dated 8 L 15. This was on a car with a build of May 12, 1970. That long of a spread is probably due to the fact that a lot of starters were "batch built" and places to use them were few and far between.

[Joe L.]

Re: What is the hardest to get part?

The starter that came on my '70 ZR1 was an 1108351 dated 8 L 15. This was on a car with a build of May 12, 1970. That long of a spread is probably due to the fact that a lot of starters were "batch built" and places to use them were few and far between.

Sal------


From the time that your 1108351 starter was manufactured until the end of C3 production, the only cars that were built at St. Louis Corvette for which it would have been even possible to install that starter on would be 1969 L-88/ZL-1 and 70-72 ZR-1----a total of 171 cars which definitely qualifies as "few-and-far-between". They wouldn't even have been able to install one of these starters by mistake or as a substitute for another starter. So, if they had received a pallet of, say, 200 starters at the time they received yours, that would have been a "lifetime" supply. Of course, if the number that they received was significantly less than 200, they would have run out at some point, and would have to obtain more and, likely by that time, those would have been the 1108381.

Obviously, they were still using the "8 L 15 batch" at the time your car was built, so if they ran out of that batch we know it was after May 12, 1970.

The above does involve some speculation on just how things happened. However, if it did happen just this way, then I would expect that every original 1969 L-88 built after November 15, 1968 should have a starter dated the same as yours. And, every 1970 ZR-1 built prior to yours should have a starter dated the same as yours, too.

I did some further checking and have confirmed that the ONLY GM applications for the 1108351 starter were 1967-69 L-88, 1969 ZL-1, and 1970-72 ZR-1. All of these, of course, were Corvette-only applications except for 1969 ZL-1 if the COPO ZL-1 Camaro used the same 12-3/4" flywheel as Corvette ZL-1. There were no other applications for the 1108351 starter across all the GM car and truck lines.

As I mentioned previously, the 1108351 was discontinued from SERVICE in July, 1970 and replaced by the GM #1108381. I doubt that any 1108351's were manufactured after July, 1970 and, likely, manufacture of them ended well prior to that time.

So, if the St. Louis "stash" of 1108351 starters ran out prior to the end of ZR-1 PRODUCTION, I expect that the 1108381 would have been used. If so, that would be the only PRODUCTION use of the 1108381; I can find no other PRODUCTION uses for it, at all, across all of the GM car and truck lines.