Engine Coolant Change

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

On my 63 I used Prestone Dexcool after installing the new DeWitts radiator. After seven years I changed to G-05 and distilled water but the dexcool looked like the day I put it in the engine.

IMO, the only way to properly change the coolant on our old cars is to remove the block drain plugs. I usually drain everything then remove the 5/8" heater hose from the manifold and blow through to get the coolant out of the core. After that I put a few gallons of water in the expansion tank then open the block plugs to drain. You will be surprised how much rust and sediment will be removed and it only takes a few minutes of extra time.

Biggest PIA is removing the wire shields to access the block drain plugs but you feel the system is cleaned out good when finished.

[Duke W.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Domestic water can have chlorine and flourine added, both of which can have corrosive effects in cooling systems. Distilled water costs about a buck or two a gallon and anti-freeze is about ten bucks a gallon.

For the cost of a Starbucks Mocha Java every few years you can ensure that the added water is virtually free of any potentially harmful ions. To me it's a no-brainer.

Cast iron and brass are fairly forgiving of poor cooling system maintenance, but alumimun is not. Many know this from having to replace aluminum radiators.

Having owned a Cosworth Vega for 35 years and being an active member of the Cosworth Vega Owner's Association, I've seen a lot of corrosion damage due to lack of cooling system maintenance. I have a coolant pump casting that is holed from corrosion that I use for demonstration purposes.

Another common corrosion damage phenomenon occurs at the tops of the free standing cylinder bores, which eventually causes the head gasket to blow out, which requires cylinder sleeves - a complete teardown and major rebuild, which is not cheap.

If you buy a new car and trade it within five or six years, you don't have to worrry about much other than oil changes. If you never refresh any of the other fluids, likely no harm will come until the car is gone.

Owning a collector car is a different situation. You may have bought one recently and have no idea of its maintenance history, or you may have have owned one for a long time, but been lax on maintenance. When you're talking about owning a car for decades and maybe even passing it on to your heirs you have to sweat the details.

Another problem that I see among collector car owners is that they don't keep records. Many have absolutely no idea when this or that fluid was changed saying - I only drive it a few times a year.

Cooling and brake system corrosion can occur while the car is sitting under its $500 cover in its climate controlled garage. For coolant and brake fluid the clock started that last time it was refreshed whether the car was driven or not.

We've had enough discussions on these issues that most NCRS members should know what fluids to use and be able to come up with a reasonable change interval given their climate, driving and storage conditions.

AND KEEP RECORDS, so you know when the next change is due.

Duke

[Paul J.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Bill------


My work for my entire 33 year career involved environmental regulation specifically relating to water. I can tell you this: concentrated, drained (spent) coolant should never be disposed of to the sanitary sewer system or the stormwater collection system.

Dilute coolant (such as that created with a flush-and-fill kit) should never be discharged to a stormwater collection system or other natural outlet (e.g. creek, stream, etc.). However, I consider that dilute coolant can be safely and legally discharged to a sanitary sewer system. Ethylene glycol, in the dilute form and especially as further diluted in the sanitary sewer system is VERY biodegradable (biological treatment is the general process used in the vast majority of municipal wastewater treatment systems). I know of no specific regulations prohibiting the discharge of ethylene glycol to a sanitary sewer system or, even, limiting the concentration at which it can be discharged. Some agencies might "hang their hat" on the general prohibition of discharging toxic substances but, carried to the extreme, that would also mean you couldn't use bleach for your laundry.

The main problem with spent coolant is the concentration of certain heavy metals which may be present. These are leeched out of various automotive cooling system components via natural and inevitable corrosion of those components. However, we (and other agencies) did an extensive study of the concentrations in coolant of various heavy metals for which specific discharge concentration limits were adopted. We found that even in concentrated spent coolant the limits for all of the regulated metals were barely exceeded. In the dilute coolant, the concentrations were well below the allowable discharge limit. In systems with primarily aluminum metallic components (as is the case with most modern system), the concentrations of heavy metals in even the concentrated coolant is well below discharge limits.

So, if one drains as much as possible of the concentrated coolant from the radiator/cooling system and disposes of it to a hazardous waste collection facility, the dilute coolant in the flush should be fine for disposal to the sanitary sewer system.

Joe, as you probably are aware, ethylene glycol is a hazardous waste by category under RCRA, and it is illegal to release it into the environment under Federal and most State laws. However, some hazardous waste can be discharged into a Publically Owned Treatment Works (sanitary sewer plant) if it is diluted and the POTW allows it.

Ethylene glycol breaks down in the environment and poses a minimal threat if diluted. However, it can be deadly to animals if ingested in concentrated form.

I did some work for a company that cleaned rail tank cars. They had some molybdenum in thier wastewater which really messed up the very small POTW they were discharging into. It turned out that a couple of local garages were discharging anti freeze from thier customers into the system. This was found out after they had spent over $1 million on an elaborate pretreatment system.

Paul

[John N.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Someone had asked how you could tell when the antifreeze had lost its anticorrosive properties. By memory there was an article in a general restorer magazine which checked the electrical current flow between the coolant and the radiator or block?. I believe that the current flow indicates that corrosion is taking place. I put the article into a Oklahoma NCRS Sidepipes but do not have the article available to be sure of the procedure.Regards

[Gary C.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

John, there's some test strips that work like pool test strips. Gary....

http://www.gwrauto.com/RadStrip1.htm

[Duke W.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Joe, as you probably are aware, ethylene glycol is a hazardous waste by category under RCRA, and it is illegal to release it into the environment under Federal and most State laws. However, some hazardous waste can be discharged into a Publically Owned Treatment Works (sanitary sewer plant) if it is diluted and the POTW allows it.

Ethylene glycol breaks down in the environment and poses a minimal threat if diluted. However, it can be deadly to animals if ingested in concentrated form.

I did some work for a company that cleaned rail tank cars. They had some molybdenum in thier wastewater which really messed up the very small POTW they were discharging into. It turned out that a couple of local garages were discharging anti freeze from thier customers into the system. This was found out after they had spent over $1 million on an elaborate pretreatment system.

Paul

About ten years ago I contacted the hazmat guy in my local fire department and asked him if I could dispose of used antifreeze in the sanitary sewer system. He said it was okay, because we have a state-of-the-art treatment system that will remove metal ions and the ethylene glycol is decomposed during the treatment process.

However, he said it was preferable to take it to our city recycling center, where I already took my used engine oil, so that's what I did.

Then, two years ago the recycling center closed.

Now I dump used anti-freeze and brake fluid down the toilet, and I take my used oil to Pep Boys.

Of course, proper disposal will vary with locality, so call your local fire department as they are usually where the local hazmat expert is located.

Duke

[Joe L.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Domestic water can have chlorine and flourine added, both of which can have corrosive effects in cooling systems. Distilled water costs about a buck or two a gallon and anti-freeze is about ten bucks a gallon.

For the cost of a Starbucks Mocha Java every few years you can ensure that the added water is virtually free of any potentially harmful ions. To me it's a no-brainer.

Cast iron and brass are fairly forgiving of poor cooling system maintenance, but alumimun is not. Many know this from having to replace aluminum radiators.

Having owned a Cosworth Vega for 35 years and being an active member of the Cosworth Vega Owner's Association, I've seen a lot of corrosion damage due to lack of cooling system maintenance. I have a coolant pump casting that is holed from corrosion that I use for demonstration purposes.

Another common corrosion damage phenomenon occurs at the tops of the free standing cylinder bores, which eventually causes the head gasket to blow out, which requires cylinder sleeves - a complete teardown and major rebuild, which is not cheap.

If you buy a new car and trade it within five or six years, you don't have to worrry about much other than oil changes. If you never refresh any of the other fluids, likely no harm will come until the car is gone.

Owning a collector car is a different situation. You may have bought one recently and have no idea of its maintenance history, or you may have have owned one for a long time, but been lax on maintenance. When you're talking about owning a car for decades and maybe even passing it on to your heirs you have to sweat the details.

Another problem that I see among collector car owners is that they don't keep records. Many have absolutely no idea when this or that fluid was changed saying - I only drive it a few times a year.

Cooling and brake system corrosion can occur while the car is sitting under its $500 cover in its climate controlled garage. For coolant and brake fluid the clock started that last time it was refreshed whether the car was driven or not.

We've had enough discussions on these issues that most NCRS members should know what fluids to use and be able to come up with a reasonable change interval given their climate, driving and storage conditions.

AND KEEP RECORDS, so you know when the next change is due.

Duke

Duke------

If one is filling an empty cooling system, then it's practical to use distilled water with the anti-freeze. However, if one is using the flush-and-fill kit then there's no way that it's practical to use distilled water (unless one happens to have it on tap). As I mentioned, though, if one receives a very high quality tap water, there's very little benefit from distilled water.

As far as chlorine and fluoride go, if present in high quality tap water they will be at levels below 1 ppm. At that level I don't consider they'll harm anything.

[Kenneth F.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

John, I believe maximum acceptable current flow for coolant or brake fluid, measured with a digital volt meter should be .3 volt, direct current. One lead in the coolant or brake fluid and the other to the grounded battery cable.


Ken

[Terry M.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Someone had asked how you could tell when the antifreeze had lost its anticorrosive properties. By memory there was an article in a general restorer magazine which checked the electrical current flow between the coolant and the radiator or block?. I believe that the current flow indicates that corrosion is taking place. I put the article into a Oklahoma NCRS Sidepipes but do not have the article available to be sure of the procedure.Regards

See post #3 in this thread.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

I checked the antifreeze voltage reading in my 67 yesterday and got a reading of 242 mV (millivolts) on my digital voltmeter, took a few miutes for the voltmeter to settle. Positive lead touching fluid only and negitive lead to battery terminal, if I am correct this is .24 volts and PH is OK.

Antifreeze is almost two years old in this car installed with deionized water, what's the proper additive to restore PH to G-05 HOAT and how much to use. The fluid looks like it was put in yesterday.

I did my 63 a few months ago and the same test indicated 108+- mV (.10 volt) so there is a difference in the time frame. I used distilled water for this one and I believe it's the same as deionized but potable because bacteria is cooked out.

This is a very interesting post because with the proper additive it saves $$$ and time provided you don't get carried away. It's amazing the marketing and waste of $$ just consider the premixed antifreeze at the same price as concentrate. Half the product for the same $$$.

[Duke W.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

It's more than just pH. HOAT antifreezes have a blend of both inorganic and organic corrosion inhibitors, and they are depleted with time in order to protect the system from corrosion.

Corrosion mechanisms can be complicated and not well understood, and the chemistry to inhibit them can be pretty esoteric.

Rather than guessing on what kind of additive to add, I think you are better off changing the G-05 every five years if you want to get maximum life out of the various cooling system components that are subject to corrosion damage.

There is a family of additives called "nitrites" that are used in diesel engines, and they can be measured and replenished as required. Diesel engines are subject to a phenomenon called "cavitation erosion". The rapid pressure rise can "ring" the cylinder liner (high frequency vibration), which can cause caviation of the coolant near the liners, and when the cavitation bubbles collapse, they can erode the liner and damage is cumulative.

Spark ignition engine coolants don't need nitrites because they don't suffer from cavitation erosion.

Duke

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Duke,

I have a 1996 F-450 stake body power stroke diesel with the old green antifreeze that's been sitting for a few years. Is this G-05 something to consider for the power stroke or call Ford dealer.

Can't recall if there is a filter for the cooling system, I think I read that sometimes these filters contain the additives you mention. I want to drain and service and I hope no damage is done. Truck only has 36000 miles.

[Terry M.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Heavy duty trucks often have a filter in the cooling system A company named NALCO makes a filter that contains an additive package separated by aluminum foil like dividers. Filter looks like a screw-on oil filter and the coolant circulates through this device. As the coolant becomes more acidic it eats through the aluminum foil divider and releases a package of additive replenishment into the cooling system. This exposes the next divider and the cycle repeats. I don't know how often this cycle is repeated, but I am sure there is manufacturers information on that.

There may be other companies making the same kind of system. I doubt your Ford is heavy duty enough to have such a system, but there is a chance something like it could be adapted -- I suspect however that this system depends on coolant circulating in the cooling system to operate. The more sedentary lifestyle our vehicles take on is not concussive to the operation of this additive addition device.

[Duke W.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Duke,

I have a 1996 F-450 stake body power stroke diesel with the old green antifreeze that's been sitting for a few years. Is this G-05 something to consider for the power stroke or call Ford dealer.

Can't recall if there is a filter for the cooling system, I think I read that sometimes these filters contain the additives you mention. I want to drain and service and I hope no damage is done. Truck only has 36000 miles.

I'm not up to speed on all coolants for diesels, both current and older models, so you need to do some research for your specific application.

Duke

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine Coolant Change

Thanks Terry and Duke, I will run by the Ford dealer tomorrow and ask the service manager.. I think the G-05 is approved for the older power stroke but I want to be sure..

As far as the voltage test, my mercury sable test better than the Corvettes probably because of all the plastics used in the cooling system. Digital meter reads 95mV so that would be .095Volt if I am correct.