65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

[John K.]

I am looking to purchase a 65 coupe from the original owner. It has knock-off wheels from a 64. They are written up on the dealer sales contract as being taken off a left over 64. How would these be judged?

[Don H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

I will take a stab at this.
Assuming the Configuration, Completeness, Installation, are all good, as to the wheels, weights, valve stems and caps as they should be, I would say there would be a hit of perhaps 4 points in originality for incorrect date and appearance. As far is condition, a deduct of slight points if they show wear and tear. I await word from experienced judges with greater insight.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

I am looking to purchase a 65 coupe from the original owner. It has knock-off wheels from a 64. They are written up on the dealer sales contract as being taken off a left over 64. How would these be judged?

Hi John if all the wheels are painted between the fins correctly and all the other KOs stuff ie; jacking sticker and hammer glove box card etc etc are there, S/B no prolbem Phil 8063

[Mike M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

the 5th wheel, the spare, will merit deductions if the 64 dates are greater than 6 months prior to the build date of the 65 vette, all things phil mentioned being correct.mike

[Jack H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Technically, there should be a full deduction for the KO wheels since they were a dealer/owner inspired configuration addition/deletion. In other words, the car originally left the St. Louis factory WITHOUT this option on it!

Now, from a practical standpoint, the burden for detection falls on the shoulders of those who judge the car. If all of the supporting telltale(s) match that of a factory original KO car, it'll probably fly on the judging field.

Last, in terms of '64 vs. '65 nature of the KO wheels, that opens another area where there's a vagueness in our knowledge. Specifically, we know '64 KO's did NOT have accent paint applied to the center spokes AND we know they were date coded via rubber ink stamps vs. being embossed. So, what's the mystery?

Well, Noland Adams states: "The first 1965 Corvette knock-off wheel was part number 3852552, the same as 1964. The wheel changed to part number 3868768 on AIM date 2-22-65..."

The 'disconnect' is IF the early '65 KO wheel was the SAME part number as that used in '64, then one of three things is true:

(A) Early '65 cars lacked center spoke accent paint.

(B) There was an engineering change to the '64 part number to add the center spoke accent paint at the supplier's shop (Kelsey Hayes).

(C) The first '65 KO's were left over from '64 and the accent paint was added at the St. Louis factory to convert them to "65 model year" wheels.

When the date coding shifted from rubber ink stamp to embossed method isn't well defined. My 'hunch' is this happened in lock-step to the wheel PN change. I can't recall having seen a real McCoy KH KO wheel with embossed date code prior to calendar year 1965...

Anyway you cut it, for approximately a +6-month period, there would have been a 'disconnect' in terms of what replacement wheel you'd have gotten from GM service.

Why? How can you have a single wheel PN that's BOTH with and without center spoke accent paint????

[John H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

(C) The first '65 KO's were left over from '64 and the accent paint was added at the St. Louis factory to convert them to "65 model year" wheels.

Jack -

You can strike that one from the list of possibilities.

[Tom H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Jack -

You can strike that one from the list of possibilities.

As in, didn't happen ?

[Jack H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Thanks, John!

Back in 2000, Noland promised on 'bended knee' to pull the two wheel drawings and check their ECR history for what info they might provide on these two issues (center spoke accent paint and transition from rubber ink-stamp dating to emboss).

Noland isn't as spry as he once was and I've reminded him of this research a few times since... Each time I wound up re-detailing the facts! So, it's not a hot issue that sticks with him.

Another point of interest is the AIM books I've looked at do NOT support Noland's assertion of the KO wheel PN change circa Feb 65... The AIM does support Noland's parallel assertion regarding the running change to the KO lead hammer, BUT the AIM date shown is 8-7-64 which is WAY before the Feb 65 date Noland cites.

Last, the AIM pages dealing with both the KO wheel and lead hammer are hand annotated with "NPC C65-97". My guess is that refers to a Notice of Production Change document related to these two parts...

We've judged factory cars with KO wheels for a LONG time and haven't seen any evidence to support early 65 KO equipped cars NOT having the center spoke accent paint. So, there's a minor mystery here IF we're to believe Noland's statement to the effect of early vs. late wheel PN's and the 2/22/65 date associated with the change.

Know anyone with drawing access to pull the two wheel drawings and the NPC????

[Wayne M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

......Noland Adams states: "The first 1965 Corvette knock-off wheel was part number 3852552, the same as 1964. The wheel changed to part number 3868768 on AIM date 2-22-65..."

To carry on with that paragraph in Noland's Vol 2, ".... The hammer assy. changed on the same date (ie. 2-22-65) from 3859067 to 3871308".

My '65 AIM confirms the hammer part # change, but the revision record shows the date as 8-7-64. After the part #, there's a hand written "NPC 65-97.

Now, back to the KO wheel; my '65 AIM shows # 3868768 with hand written NPC 65-53 following. There is NO revision record, leading me to think this number was in effect from the 'git-go'. I'll ask if anyone else has an AIM version that shows what Noland says. Also, because the NPC suffix number is lower than that for the KO hammer change on 8-7-64, I'd speculate that the wheel change was even prior to that.

As for service, P&A30 parts history shows the '63(?)-64 type # 3852522 being replaced by the '65-only wheel #3868768 by 11-65. The latter continued to be serviced to at least Jan '70 [my newest parts book], ie. NOT yet replaced by the '66-only wheel #3877236. IIRC the last KO ('66-style) was out of service around 1975-76.

[John H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

As in, didn't happen ?

Tom -

Correct - didn't happen.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Jack and everyone else, I dont know why people make a big deal about KO wheels, and GOD forbid side exhaust, if your car didnt come with it. KOs are just a bolt on item. No one has any prolbem with teak wheels, tinted glass, power steering, power brakes, speed minder, shoulder belts, red lines, gold lines, radio heater delete, list goes on and on. No body has to prove their cars a F.I or big block, big tank, big brake etc, or has any of the above ops above but if you put KOs on, wheres the paper work thats BS. I dont agree with making a car a fuel car or big brake car or big block, or making a white/ black C1 into a black/blue. but adding KOs or bolt ons, I dont get it. Phil 8063

[Gene M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Jack and everyone else, I dont know why people make a big deal about KO wheels, and GOD forbid side exhaust, if your car didn't come with it. KOs are just a bolt on item. No one has any problem with teak wheels, tinted glass, power steering, power brakes, speed minder, shoulder belts, red lines, gold lines, radio heater delete, list goes on and on. No body has to prove their cars a F.I or big block, big tank, big brake etc, or has any of the above ops above but if you put KOs on, wheres the paper work thats BS. I dont agree with making a car a fuel car or big brake car or big block, or making a white/ black C1 into a black/blue. but adding KOs or bolt ons, I dont get it. Phil 8063

Phil, what you say is interesting. I've often wondered why I see so many high option cars and high horse big blocks on the NCRS show field. I being a purist I restore a Corvette with only the options it came with. Sometimes the determination is easy with tank, window sticker, order form, and protecto plate. Other times without documentation I gotta look hard at the car so it tells me.

But one thing is for sure there are too many of these options displayed on the show field than were ever built. Be it a simple addition such as red lines or a big one like side exhaust or 435 hp.

I doubt a "honor" system of declaration of true original options will work. Some find the truth difficult to speak.

I would like to see the tank stick as a determination of installed options. I hear to often of persons adding power steering and brakes. Which if done correctly is difficult to disprove as original. Side pipes is easy to discredit if added but not every NCRS person or judge has the knowledge. Sharing this knowledge to an owner with a car presented incorrectly I do not share. Otherwise next time it will be rectified.

[John K.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Well..what an array of answers to my original question. I'm not trying to upgrade the car. That is what was bought from the dealer..so what I am reading is that the day the car left the dealer it would be deducted points..shame on the the original buyer for wanting KO's on his car.

[George J.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Unfortunately, yes. With that said, though, you can stil top flight the car and it is a more interesting car for the KO's. Keep 'em and just work around the point deduction. Tell the story on the field and you'll get admiration and a sympathetic ear if I'm around.

George

[John R.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

I am restoring a set of 63-64 KO's. As I read this post it says 64 were unpainted. I have read Vette Vues Fact Book by M.F. Dobbins and on page 24 it indicates that the 63 rims WERE painted. He indicates "Note silver paint between fins.".This post indicates they were not. I am assuming the 63-64 were all the same. Dobbins book does not mention anything about the 64 wheels. Is Dobbins wrong or are 63 painted silver and 64 not painted at all.

Thanks for any help...