65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

[Andy C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hello Duke; I have read all the info posted here regarding the availability of 63 KO's. We all know that they were part of the Z06 option and also available on their own. We know that some early pilot line cars had them on them. We know that the GM show cars had them on them. We have heard from a number of guys who say they have seen 63's in 1963 with them on them. I think Phil has made some very good valid points as to the POSSIBILITY of SOME 63's being released with the KO wheels on them especially Z06's. Some of your comments may be valid, but some just don't fit......I think what is needed are some photos of a 63 corvette on a car carrier with KO wheels on it in front of a dealership being unloaded in 1963 or some GM paper work that states that NO cars would be allowed to be delievered to any customers because of safety issues. This kind of reminds me of those who say that they used a MITT to put black paint all over the 63 exhaust system, I don't think so...! I will say that is anyone wants a restoration challange, try doing a 63 properly.They made so many running changes that it's nearly impossible. There are many errors in the AIM and many more in the current JM. We can't fix the AIM, but we can gather and research our passion of 63's and improve the JM as time goes on and before we all go Bye Bye.......Andy C......

[Edward M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Do I dare jump in here with a discussion of the 1973 YJ8 option. No, that's another never happened, or did I just imagine it. Never say never...good philosophy.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Do I dare jump in here with a discussion of the 1973 YJ8 option. No, that's another never happened, or did I just imagine it. Never say never...good philosophy.

Well Eddie the black book says 4 cars. Phil 8063

[Andy C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Note to all NCRS members! I think that in order to get the answer to the question of whether or not a 63 corvette could have left the line with KO's, we need to seek out any and all GM documentation, any and all 1962/63 dated GM photos that show a 63 with KO's on it, possibly a 63 with KO's being unloaded at a dealer, Original window stickers with the KO option on it,etc. Out of the 15,000+ members in NCRS, I would think that someone can provide some of the material requested and put this Myth to bed once and for all......If anyone can help, please contact Phil Castaldo as he has devoted many hours into this matter.......Thanks, Andy C.

[Jaime G.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

One of the best posts I have read here.

[Edward M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Well Eddie the black book says 4 cars. Phil 8063

Yes, I understand that. But the question is "What do the Corvette production numbers actually mean?" Does is mean that the assemply plany installed YJ* wheels on four cars? Or does it mean that 4 customers paid for the option and, for whatever reason, did not get their order officially cancelled. Or something else.

The YJ8 wheel was listed as an option for 1978, and many preproduction photos of 1973 Corvettes with the aluminum wheel exist. However, when 1973 production started, the option was not available do to quality issues with the wheels. THe restriction on the options was inadvertently lifted for a few days in October of 72. Chevrolet sent a notice to dealers that this was not intentional, and that the restriction was still in place. I still haven't seen any paperwork indicating that the wheel was installed at the assemply plant on a specific car. That "4" units on the production numbers is still a mystery.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Yes, I understand that. But the question is "What do the Corvette production numbers actually mean?" Does is mean that the assemply plany installed YJ* wheels on four cars? Or does it mean that 4 customers paid for the option and, for whatever reason, did not get their order officially cancelled. Or something else.

The YJ8 wheel was listed as an option for 1978, and many preproduction photos of 1973 Corvettes with the aluminum wheel exist. However, when 1973 production started, the option was not available do to quality issues with the wheels. THe restriction on the options was inadvertently lifted for a few days in October of 72. Chevrolet sent a notice to dealers that this was not intentional, and that the restriction was still in place. I still haven't seen any paperwork indicating that the wheel was installed at the assemply plant on a specific car. That "4" units on the production numbers is still a mystery.

Hi Ed I believe the numbers in the black book reflect the production numbers. Which 4 cars is up to you. The wheels were available over the counter in 1976, I bought a set for my 74 and put on the new goodyear flexten tires. If you have been researching these wheels you know what I have been going thru to find out about the 63 kos. Phil 8063

[Edward M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

OK, but what does "Production Numbers" really mean? 4 cars actually equipped with the option at the assembly plant? 4 YJ8 options ordered and not subsequently cancelled? 4 YJ8 orders paid for and not subsequently refunded to the customer? Some combination of all of the above?I have researched this issue in depth, and I (and others) have yet to find any tangible evidence (window sticker, photo on assembly line, whatever) that any 1973 Corvettes were equipped with the YJ8 option at the assembly plant. I'm still looking.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Considering all the evidence presented in this thread and all other evidence I have ever seen regarding KO wheels for the 1963 model year, it is my opinion that not one single "production" car (which doesn't include the 25 pilot line cars) was ever equipped with KO wheels as it rolled off the St. Louis line.

No, I don't believe it's even possible, because I am of the firm believe that it didn't happen.

Some of the "two-bar" KO wheels sets which have a different adapter design (as shown in the 1963 Shop Manual) did make it into the public domain - I don't know how.

Also, '63 owners who were dying to have KOs on their car could buy them over the counter after they were released for production for the '64 MY. By the time this happened I was over "Knockoff Fever". One of the reasons was that I found out that KOs including the adapters were considerably heavier than the standard steel wheels, and not long engineeringafter I took delivery I realized that the OE General Jetaires were junk, so I replaced them after about a year with Michelin X radials that yielded a lot more bang for the buck.

Duke

Hi Duke, I know you worked at Pontiac, so you will understand what I just found, the engineering drawings, they are being set to me, they show the RELEASE DATES for the wheels, with the GM title blocks. If engineering release them, they went on the cars, until a change, thats the system. Phil 8063

[Duke W.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

No doubt we will all be interested in what drawing this is and what information it contains, however, release of a drawing for a part or parts that make up an option do not mean the the option was released for production. Parts have to be manufactured and validated (tested), and in the case of KO wheels the ultimate reason why they were not released for production during the 1963 MY may be legal rather than technical.

If memory serves Dayton sued GM and Kelsey Hayes over their use of the "gear drive" design, to which Dayton claimed a patent. As a result, GM/Kelsey Hayes redesigned the KOs using the so-called "pin drive" design, and this may have ultmately been the reason why KOs were delayed so long that Chevrolet decided to target their release for the '64 MY.

Duke

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

No doubt we will all be interested in what drawing this is and what information it contains, however, release of a drawing for a part or parts that make up an option do not mean the the option was released for production. Parts have to be manufactured and validated (tested), and in the case of KO wheels the ultimate reason why they were not released for production during the 1963 MY may be legal rather than technical.

If memory serves Dayton sued GM and Kelsey Hayes over their use of the "gear drive" design, to which Dayton claimed a patent. As a result, GM/Kelsey Hayes redesigned the KOs using the so-called "pin drive" design, and this may have ultmately been the reason why KOs were delayed so long that Chevrolet decided to target their release for the '64 MY.

Duke

Duke glad you brought that up, once again never seen one printed word about that, but could have been settled quickly without the suits (lawyers). The Corvair gear type wheel drive adpter that looks just like the corvette one and it never changed thru out the 63 Corvair MY. Its has been said that those wheels were over the counter only, I don't know, but that was a different plant. The wheels that Zora sent Delmo were pin drive, the Gulf Oil cars were also pin drive, so the change over to them was early. Thank you for your interest, I wish more people would jump in and help. Do you or anyone else out there know who actuality made the wheels and where? Phil 8063

[Duke W.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Corvette News (Vol. 6 No. 3) has a photo of ALL the Corvettes that ran the Daytona Continental in January, and all of them are wearing steel wheels.

The next issue features Sebring and Delmo's car appears to have KOs with three-bar nuts, which would indicate the pin-drive design. It would make sense that Chevrolet used racing as one of the validation tests, but at this point the '63 MY is half done, and no one has ever come up with any good evidence that RPO P-48 was released for production during the '63 MY, nor has any documentation ever turned up that P-48 was installed at St. Louis on a car destined for sale to a retail customer.

Duke

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Corvette News (Vol. 6 No. 3) has a photo of ALL the Corvettes that ran the Daytona Continental in January, and all of them are wearing steel wheels.

The next issue features Sebring and Delmo's car appears to have KOs with three-bar nuts, which would indicate the pin-drive design. It would make sense that Chevrolet used racing as one of the validation tests, but at this point the '63 MY is half done, and no one has ever come up with any good evidence that RPO P-48 was released for production during the '63 MY, nor has any documentation ever turned up that P-48 was installed at St. Louis on a car destined for sale to a retail customer.

Duke

Duke Dave McDonald's car was vin 684 first week of production in Sept 1962. The wheels were in the works long before that. In Corvette news Vol 7 #1 there a photo of 1964 coupe with two bar kos on it. THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE PIECE OF PAPER that shows the wheels were not installed. Take a look again at Delmo's car #3 it has the two bar kos on it. I have shown that there are pages and numerous photos of evidence. Sebring was in Feb. the Firestone tire test with Mickey's silver car vin 809 and the grandsport car was Dec 15, 62. plenty of time for the wheels. The 63 conv at Waterford in May..... John D eye-witness of the fact, Delmos statement etc..... I have a shipper copy of a 17,k vin without the symbol next to it. The list goes on and on. I guess I don't know what good evidence is, but I know what NO evidence is. Phil 8063 still like to know who made the wheels?

[Michael H.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

I haven't read all of the posts on this but here's what I think might have happened. There are quite a few somewhat documented cars that seem to have been equipped with KO wheels from the assy plant. Most are early production.
The GM info in the Noland Adams book seems to show that no jobs with the P48 KO wheel option were built. However, at start of 63 production, there was no such orderable option as P48 because it was to be included with the Z06 package. It was later supposed to be available separately.
If that's the case, and it was, would early production cars with Z06 automatically include the wheels under the Z06 package but not be counted as a separate option?
If so, the first actual count total of P48 would have started after the option became available separately.

I have a stack of GM engineering NPC's that release and cancel the P48 option several times during the 63 model year. There are spaces between the release and stop orders that would certainly allow for a few cars to be assembled with the KO wheels.

I'm not taking sides on this because I have KO's on either of my 63's. I really don't care for the look of the wheels on 63's, and especially on coupes.

[James G.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

PHIL, YOU ASK ''Phil 8063 still like to know who made the wheels?''

I remember here in California in the very early 80's WESTERN WHEEL made the first reproduction Knock off wheel, which was really a bolt on with screw on spinner. The word locally in those days was WESTERN was involved with Kelsy Hayes and had manfacturing facilties in Mexico in 1963, hence the connenection. Who knows......more of the story.

I would love to see MIKE ANTONICK as a guest speaker at a major Corvette event where he shares with us all where he has received all of his facts over the years.