Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

[John H.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

Good grief! We are still dealing with just chunks of metal and plastic. We love the style and engineering and in some cases the unique character and history of the creations, but in the end the friends and characters we meet along the way make this hobby really worthwhile. I still have a hard time justifying in my mind the extremely high prices paid for cars that were modified by some guy outside the factory(Shelby,Yenko,Gates, Nickey).In some cases just an engine change and suspension mod. I sometimes think that we are strung just a little too tight. In my mind the NCRS way of restoration is an art form, and as in any art," beauty is in the eye of the beholder". No right way ,nor wrong way. Fraud is another thing ,and is best left up to the courts. I think the JM deals well with known fraud.

[Joe L.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

I have to laugh at the other forum for even considering this company as a supporting vendor! http://www.oldchevydocumentation.com/ Perhaps they will get a Block stamping company next!

Mark------


The only problem I have with the items offered by this company is the fact that they supply "aged" documents (like tank stickers, etc.). In my opinion, this is tantamount to facilitating subsequent fraudulent representation. It's definitely not part of restoration since the documents were not "aged" as they left the factory-----they appeared "brand new" then. So, if one is truly trying to restore a car to the condition it was in when it left the factory (which, of course, is the goal of NCRS-type restorations), then one would want a new-appearing document.

As far as the rest of their offerings, I would consider those pretty much legitimate restoration items. In my mind, restoration is restoration. It does not necessarily mean that everything (or, for that matter, ANYTHING) is original to the car or, even, an original component from a similar car. It just means that it APPEARS as it was originally.

[John H.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

Since the "documents" are not judged, they are irrelevant to us as far as judging goes.

[Jim D.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

Since the "documents" are not judged, they are irrelevant to us as far as judging goes.

But several items listed for sale by that company ARE judged.

[John H.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

If they meet the standards for our judging and are not used for fraud, then what is the objection?

[Joe L.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

Since the "documents" are not judged, they are irrelevant to us as far as judging goes.

John------


While the documents may not be part of the judging process, itself, I think they're still a legitimate part of the restoration process. For the most part they were supplied with the car as it left the factory and they may be displayed with a restored vehicle in a judged or non-judged event. In my mind, if displayed in this context, they should appear as-new, not "aged".

[John H.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

In that context, you make a very valid point that I agree with.

[Dennis O.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

Isn't it amazing how almost all of the big blocks for sale these days now have all the factory documentation/tank stickers (aged) and window stickers. Most of this stuff got tossed along with the air pumps and ignition shielding back when they were new.

I think this is a very good point. I've had my '67 since '87 and all the paper work was gone when I got it, and this was a very nice 67,000 mile car. This was back in the days before everyone went crazy with this stuff. I also bought a '67 new in 1967, and remember that I couldn't have cared less what happened to the paperwork after the warranty was over.

[Edward S.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

I am not a lawyer, but I asked this question some time ago and no one answered - If these or other documents contain a reprint of the Chevy Bowtie or other logos pertaining to other General Motors brands, could not GM if they wanted to take these people to court to have then cease and desist or at least pay a large fee for using those logos?

[Dennis S.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

I am not a lawyer, but I asked this question some time ago and no one answered - If these or other documents contain a reprint of the Chevy Bowtie or other logos pertaining to other General Motors brands, could not GM if they wanted to take these people to court to have then cease and desist or at least pay a large fee for using those logos?

Probably, at some cost in terms of legal fees and negative publicity. GM has no dog in the hunt, unless they feel guilty for destroying their build records and setting the stage for this whole mess in the first place. They are in the business of selling new vettes, parts and service.

[Larry T.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

So what happens to all the cars that are fakes, frauds and forgeries when these people are driven out? Do you accept the new owners with open arms and gain a new appreciation for their made up cars?

I guess I don't get your point. A fake is a fake is a fake. Why would I gain a sudden appreciation for it (or fake documentation) because there is a new owner? What would you suggest with respect to fakes frauds and forgeries (cars and those who create them)?

I would suggest that the individuals that act in a fraudulent and unlawful manner be prosecuted.

I would suggest that the new owners, who were defrauded, be accepted while their cars be accepted for what they are.

I am just trying to figure out if it was the people or the cars you had a problem with and wanted "driven out" of the hobby. Apparently it is both. Perhaps we should limit NCRS participation to only those with correct, highly documented cars.

[Dick W.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

I am not a lawyer, but I asked this question some time ago and no one answered - If these or other documents contain a reprint of the Chevy Bowtie or other logos pertaining to other General Motors brands, could not GM if they wanted to take these people to court to have then cease and desist or at least pay a large fee for using those logos?

I do not know if EMI still has control of the GM Retoration Parts licensing, but I know for a fact that you do not want to get crossways with them. I know of vendors that they have "fallen from great heights upon them" and have cost the vendor serious amounts of money. Whether or not this is a big enough deal for them to get involved, I do not know.

NCRS has taken great strides to help ferret the fakes out. The document services is a large step in the right direction. One of more well know dealers/restorers that have had a reputation for manufacturing fakes have had their cars disqualified from judging and have had their membership priviledges, in NCRS, revoked, most likely permanently. I understand that BG is also taking a hard nosed stand on the same thing.

Apparently some do not understand the relationship between NCRS and Barrett Jackson. BJ will not market a sellers car as a "Top Flight, Duntov, or Bow Tie" without verification from NCRS. I believe, along with several others, that it has prevented unsuspecting buyers from purchasing some of the cars that owners were falsely hawking as award winners. Personally I feel sorry for the unknowing buyer that shows up for judging at one of the premier venues and finds out the hard way that what he thinks he has is not what he has. Case in point was the '67 435 that was sold for absolutely top dollar for a real car, turns out to be a bogus engine, trim tag and I believe VIN tag. That dealer gives everyone in the hobby, either a honest dealer or a private seller, a black eye

I find it interesting that the document vendor, in the link, has a Las Vegas Phone # that is unlisted. I have reason to believe that this is the vendor that is claiming to have "perfect undetectable' trim tags. If you believe that statement, I have a bridge, at a bargain, that I need to sell you.

[Robert G.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

I would suggest that the individuals that act in a fraudulent and unlawful manner be prosecuted.

I would suggest that the new owners, who were defrauded, be accepted while their cars be accepted for what they are.

I am just trying to figure out if it was the people or the cars you had a problem with and wanted "driven out" of the hobby. Apparently it is both. Perhaps we should limit NCRS participation to only those with correct, highly documented cars.

It's the people, Larry. Those who switch trim/vin tags, create bogus 'aged' documentation, etc. They shouldn't be feeling welcome in the hobby, at least not within the NCRS.

[Dick W.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

If forgot to mention that approximately 1/3 of the Camaro's that go to auction have bogus trim tags, so Corvette do not have a lock on bogus cars

[Joe C.]

Re: Cf Sinks To New Low,,,,

Faked trim tags, paint, stamp pad, etc etc. are NOT okay when detected in judging. Best read up.

They are treated VERY differently:

"Faked" stamp pads are noted as "not typical of production" and are cause for point deductions.

"Faked" trim tags are not authenticated (signed off) by the Team Leader on the summary sheet, and are grounds for disqualification from the event.