'64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

[Michael F.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Michael------



Yes, but they were different windage trays and different studs were used with them.

The 1969 Z-28 used a "C" cross section windage tray of GM #3927136. This tray was used with studs GM #3960312 (now GM #14087508). The 1969 Z-28 oil pan was different than any 63-74 Corvette oil pan (but basically the same as 75-79 L-82) and I don't think the 3927136 will fit of function properly with any 63-74 Corvette oil pan. Certainly, it was never originally used with those oil pans, either the "5 quart" or "6 quart".

1970-72 LT-1, except ZR-1, used a different windage tray that was similar to the 3927136, but shorter. This tray, GM #3989075, is fairly rare as it was discontinued many years ago. It was also used for 1973-74 L-82. It used the GM #3960312 studs. 1970-72 ZR-1 and, most likely, early 1970 LT-1 with 6 quart pan used the same flat baffle as the 1963-65 SHP. However, it used the GM #3960312 studs.

1975-79 L-82 used the 3927136 windage tray in conjunction with the 3960312 studs. The oil pan used was the GM #360450. This entire set-up was basically the same as 1969 Z-28.

Thanks Joe! Great info.

[Tom P.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Just for information, EITHER the earlier flat tray or the later curved tray will work and can be used with almost ANY pan. I quit using the early flat tray long ago and now, ALL my engine builds get the curved tray.
Furthermore (just in case there are people who like to stroke their engines during a rebuild), if the flat tray is used with a stroke longer than 3.50in (such as a SB400 crank), then the flat tray will have to be very mildly massaged with a ball peen hammer (or similar precision tool). Otherwise, the longer stroke crank will make contact with the flat tray. Consequently, I always use the curved tray and there is no interference issues with the long stroke cranks.



This picture shows where a stroker crank contacted a flat tray that I installed in an engine many years ago. I've had it welded to repair the cracks.

[Joe L.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Just for information, EITHER the earlier flat tray or the later curved tray will work and can be used with almost ANY pan. I quit using the early flat tray long ago and now, ALL my engine builds get the curved tray.
Furthermore (just in case there are people who like to stroke their engines during a rebuild), if the flat tray is used with a stroke longer than 3.50in (such as a SB400 crank), then the flat tray will have to be very mildly massaged with a ball peen hammer (or similar precision tool). Otherwise, the longer stroke crank will make contact with the flat tray. Consequently, I always use the curved tray and there is no interference issues with the long stroke cranks.



This picture shows where a stroker crank contacted a flat tray that I installed in an engine many years ago. I've had it welded to repair the cracks.

Tom------

Well, there are two different issues involved here. The first is will a particular windage tray FIT an engine with any particular pan installed. The second question is will a particular windage tray perform properly or, perhaps, have negative consequences, when installed on an engine with any particular pan installed.

The first question is relatively easily answered. In fact, you've answered it. The second question is not so easily answered and involves significant engineering evaluation. None of us are prepared or equipped to do that. So, as far as I'm concerned, I consider this an area in which I have to rely on the engineering that was done by GM.

The fact is that GM NEVER used the long curved tray (GM #3927136) with any pan other than the Z-28 pan. This pan was originally known as GM #3927134 and later known as GM #3961398, GM #3974251, GM #360009, GM #465220 (oil pan + gasket kit), and, finally, GM #360450. Relying on GM engineering, those are the only pans with which I would use the GM #3927136 windage tray. I will repeat that GM NEVER used the 3927136 windage tray with ANY 1963-74 Corvette small block oil pan even though it was in their parts bin after 1967.

As far as the "flat" windage tray, GM #3769768, is concerned, GM used that windage tray only with certain C1 Corvette pans and the 63-65 and 70-72 small block Corvette "6 quart" oil pan, GM #3820001 (which was known as GM #359942 in SERVICE after 1976). So, as far as C2 and C3 Corvette oil pans are concerned, I would rely on GM engineering and only use the "flat" windage tray with the aforementioned Corvette oil pans.

The only windage tray that GM ever used with the 63-74 small block Corvette "5 quart" oil pan is the short curved tray, GM #3989075, and this was used only for 1970-72 LT-1 and 73-74 L-82 applications. GM had the long curved tray in their parts bin long before the 3989075. So, why not just use it for the LT-1 and L-82 applications and avoid the need to create a new part number? I'll bet they had a good reason and, whatever it was, I'm not about to second guess it now. So, if I were to use a windage tray with the 63-74 small block Corvette "5 quart" oil pan, the only one that I'd use is the 3989075.

As I mention, the above is my own opinion. Others can do as they wish and use whatever windage tray they wish with whatever oil pan they wish. But, I won't. I'm going to "follow the lead" of the folks that designed these systems to begin with and know a hell of a lot more about it than I do. Engine oiling is too critical an area to get involved with "field engineering" based on anecdotal information.

[Tom P.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Joe,
I have absolutely ZERO argument or conflict with any of your above comments and observations. But, the engine below is a 4bolt 350 that I built 35yrs ago with 300K+mi on it. It was still running when I pulled it, but it was extremely tired and I was tired of putting oil in it. It had the curved windage tray (Z28 type) in it during all that time and I felt it was a good idea to put it back in the 383 along with the 62 style 6qt pan. Oh ya, I also re-used the hi-volume/pressure oil pump that came out of the 35yr old 350. The oil pressure in that engine was down to about 30lbs after the engine was normalized (80lbs after startup). I'm sure the low oil pressure was due to big bearing clearances caused by lots of bearing wear. The oil pressure in the new 383 is now back to what it used when the 350 had much fewer years and miles on it. After totally normalized, on the hiway, the oil pressure is rock steady at about 60lbs. I'm happy!

[Stuart F.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Ah Yes, a early fifties era Chevy with a V8 is a beautiful thing. I miss my 50 coupe a lot. I had more fun with that car than any I've owned since, including my Vette. Thanks for posting the shot of your 52. Tom; do those exhaust manifolds clear the steering box ok? Great shot.

Guess now that Charlie is gone, there's only you and I left on the TDB that have known the experience with an early 50's V8.

Stu Fox

[Tom P.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Ah Yes, a early fifties era Chevy with a V8 is a beautiful thing. I miss my 50 coupe a lot. I had more fun with that car than any I've owned since, including my Vette. Thanks for posting the shot of your 52. Tom; do those exhaust manifolds clear the steering box ok? Great shot.

Guess now that Charlie is gone, there's only you and I left on the TDB that have known the experience with an early 50's V8.

Stu Fox

Stu,
It's actually a 51 with a 52 center bar and 54 teeth.

[Stuart F.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Love it Tom. I should have looked closer at the grill. Looks like you got a/c and all the vent ducts functioning. Nice job.

Guess I should feel bad about stealing this thread, but I believe you've answered all the concerns about the windage tray already. Can't help myself. Your "51" brings back so many good memories and frustrations of the cood ol days.

Thanks.

Stu Fox

[Tom P.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Yep, the AC still blows COLD R12, the air vents work. The horns are the original 6v horns on steroids (12volt system). The 6v horns on 12v will get your attention quick! About every 2yrs I shoot a little auto tranny flud into the hose for the original vacuum wipers and they work great for about 2more yrs. I've upgraded the steering (center arm, tierods, outer arms) with C1 steering parts which takes out a lot of slack. If I had it to do all over again, it would still have a Muncie, but I would have retained the 3sp column shifter and connected it to the Muncie (I've done that trick on a couple of friends cars). Connect the shifter linkage to the side cover and then use an overdrive handle/cable for the reverse lever. No need for a hole in the floorboard for a shifter!

[Stuart F.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

That's how I learned about 6 volt horns on 12 volts too. To this day I still use at least one 6 volt on my 63 Vette. Gets a lot of attention.

My first engine installation was a 55 165 hp and it used the two part vacuum/fuel pump. I continued with that on my 56 Vette engine only used a 12 volt electric booster pump. I dropped those in favor of the pump on the 58 fuelie Vette engine. As I probably told you before; I had a small heater defroster under dash along with a Pontiac under seat heater. My gas gauge was on a switch as it was still 6 volt so I'd just take a quick reading and shut it off. Still and all, I ran out of gas every so often specially with the fuelie out in the winter snow doing long slides and figure 8's. Had a blast with that car. Raced lot of commandos with it until the whistling fuelie gave me away. Had 50 Olds glaspaks out the sides before the rear wheels, and just the "fuel Injection" script below the trunk lid. Otherwise it looked bone stock 50 coupe.

As discussed with you some time back, I'd wished I could have figured out a good clutch linkage like yours. That was my achilles heel. If I had, I'd probably still have that car until today.

Stu Fox

[Clem Z.]

Re: '64 365hp Windage Tray Yes or No?

Just for information, EITHER the earlier flat tray or the later curved tray will work and can be used with almost ANY pan. I quit using the early flat tray long ago and now, ALL my engine builds get the curved tray.
Furthermore (just in case there are people who like to stroke their engines during a rebuild), if the flat tray is used with a stroke longer than 3.50in (such as a SB400 crank), then the flat tray will have to be very mildly massaged with a ball peen hammer (or similar precision tool). Otherwise, the longer stroke crank will make contact with the flat tray. Consequently, I always use the curved tray and there is no interference issues with the long stroke cranks.



This picture shows where a stroker crank contacted a flat tray that I installed in an engine many years ago. I've had it welded to repair the cracks.

using a windage tray in a pan not designed for a windage tray can prevent the oil from returning to the sump fast enough.