One persons opinion:

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

I have only been here less than three years, so I am hardly in a position to offer any advice whatsoever, but I will anyway.
Don't always believe everything you hear. Give it a little time before you jump in ragging on your new club. Many people seem to have the notion that this club, and the people in it suck. I heard it from some long time vette enthusiasts before I joined. I lurked on the TDB for a while getting an idea whether I would be comfortable joining the group. Once I joined in, it was a bit longer still before I felt comfortable speaking up on a topic. By now I have been to several meets on all levels, OJ'd, judged and been judged multiple times. I have learned a ton about these cars, and yet know that compared to many (most?) in the club, my knowledge level is barely more than basic.

Still, I really enjoy the meets, and the people I have met, some of whom I have become friends with. My car is an unrestored, not totally correct driver that I have been making "improvements" to for three years (with restored old original parts as well as repro parts). It is now almost exactly how I want it, and is still not, and never will be as long as I own it, totally correct, from an as-manufactured standpoint. I love it as it is. I enjoy driving it to meets and showing it in Sportsman class or having it judged. And I really enjoy driving it in general. Not one time have I seen or heard anything from anyone to indicate my car was not welcome or looked down upon at meets. In fact, it has gotten quite a few compliments.

I think you will experience the same thing when you get involved in club activities. Make your car as you like it, and bring it out to meets and show it off with pride. You will enjoy the experience, and people will enjoy checking it out. I guarantee it... I look forward to meeting you at a meet sometime. (ps. don't take this to mean that I think that everyone is perfect. I don't. This group is made up of humans after all.)

The conversation started with repro parts. If I had my 66 from 37 years ago I could easily demand that original should get more points then repro. Owning a car for 40+ years is not the problem. Its how do you get more people in the sport. So repros have to be allowed the same points as originals. If not then people will just feel slighted by those that got here first.
When I said I was going to join NCRS, I got a number of comments, most were not complimentary. So, if NCRS is going to survive they have to identify those issues and change them.
Allowing 3 point seat belts in cars that were not fitted with them would be a step forward. Allowing roll bar pads without deductions for a Vert would be another. So a person can unscrew the roll bar when being judged. Protecting people in daily drivers should be a priority.

If you wish to appeal to 25 year olds, then in some cases you have to bend. 20 years from now, the people looking for an old car to "keep fully restored" will fall exponentially. Why? the internet! We have kids that cannot find a street in their own home town without GPS. A car without an Ipod connection will be shunned. And a non satellite Radio will be dissed.

So if NCRS started thinking about a NCRS approved harness addition and placement now, then it would not cause butchery later. That is the one thing that scares me about this sport. A person who has money to burn, takes a top flight vehicle and rips all the old parts out butchers the car to make its a "functional daily driver".
So you get ahead of the curve. You allow a GPS, hands free, mirror as long as it is replaced with the original mirror for judging and you ignore the wiring harness hanging down, where the GPS mirror used to be.

I have no preconceived ideas what this club is, or what it will be like to attend a meet. I really enjoy "any effort" by anyone to keep an old car going, but I think any club has the responsibility to ensure they have the basic safety equipment to hopefully survive an accident, without point deduction. My desire to live is the same as the owner of a 67, so why should I face plant into the steering wheel of my 63 and he be saved by a 3 point seat belt on the way to be judged?

Don't always believe everything you hear. Give it a little time before you jump in ragging on your new club.

You and I obviously have a difference of opinion as to what ragging is? Constructive criticism is not ragging, some people do not feel worthy because the do not pass the litmus test of purity. Not my words, this is from people that are NCRS, or will not join because they have got it first hand from other NCRS people.
So, if it is a problem, and I am not saying it is, then all of this should be out in the open. In 20 years from now who is going to buy your corvette?
Is it the person demanding 6 air bags and 24/7 connection to the outside world? If not, then there will be 10s of thousands of us, all trying to sell to four people

[Don H.]

Re: One persons opinion:

OK Dennis,
here is my last shot, and then I will leave this conversation to others if there is anyone else still interested in it.

For a guy with no preconceived ideas of what this club or its judging meets are like, you sure have a lot of ideas. Call them non preconceived if you like, or call them something else. You seem to know an awful lot about what this club allows and disallows for someone who has been a member for 3 weeks. There has not been a meet anywhere in the time you have been a member, but there was a one day judging school in the WNY chapter. Maybe you attended that, but I am guessing not, so you have no first hand experience. Only a bunch of non preconceived ideas that to enjoy this club, your car has to be a death trap. Maybe you have spent too much time on the CF fixated on the NCRS bashing.

Put three point safety belts in your car if you want, or full racing harnesses if you want that. If you choose to have your car judged, you will loose some minor originality points for the extra holes you punched in your car, and the original belts not there. This club judges cars that way. If you drive your car any distance to the meet, you will make up for the minor point loss in driving credit points. You and your car will still be (and are) welcome in the club.

My point is, grow some whiskers in the club and get some first hand experience before lighting up the TDB with pronouncements about all your recommendations for change.

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

OK Dennis,
here is my last shot, and then I will leave this conversation to others if there is anyone else still interested in it.

For a guy with no preconceived ideas of what this club or its judging meets are like, you sure have a lot of ideas. Call them non preconceived if you like, or call them something else. You seem to know an awful lot about what this club allows and disallows for someone who has been a member for 3 weeks. There has not been a meet anywhere in the time you have been a member, but there was a one day judging school in the WNY chapter. Maybe you attended that, but I am guessing not, so you have no first hand experience. Only a bunch of non preconceived ideas that to enjoy this club, your car has to be a death trap. Maybe you have spent too much time on the CF fixated on the NCRS bashing.

Put three point safety belts in your car if you want, or full racing harnesses if you want that. If you choose to have your car judged, you will loose some minor originality points for the extra holes you punched in your car, and the original belts not there. This club judges cars that way. If you drive your car any distance to the meet, you will make up for the minor point loss in driving credit points. You and your car will still be (and are) welcome in the club.

My point is, grow some whiskers in the club and get some first hand experience before lighting up the TDB with pronouncements about all your recommendations for change.

I agree it is digressing.

Put three point safety belts in your car if you want, or full racing harnesses if you want that. If you choose to have your car judged, you will loose some minor originality points for the extra holes you punched in your car, and the original belts not there.

That was my only point, you just answered it.

[Michael W.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Constructive criticism is very different than 'ragging' and should always be well received- but it has to be pertinent to be of value. It's difficult to form an accurate critique of a process unless a person has actually been through it first handed from being in both an owners and judge's shoes.

As stated before, 'allowed', 'approved' and 'automatic deductions for repros' or similar concepts are not part of the judging vernacular or process. Possibly some of the inaccurate misconceptions from 'that other website' have clouded your perspective? There's nothing stopping an owner from making whatever changes he likes to his vehicle and either undoing them or leaving them as-is during judging.

I disagree with the concept of relaxing the rules simply to ensure that more cars get a Top Flight. It's not intended to be a 'no child left behind' ego-boosting award.

I see that you're in Ontario. I'd suggest that you hook up with that chapter and attend a few of their events to see in person how things really work. If you're closer to Quebec, you'd be welcome to become part of our chapter as well.

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Constructive criticism is very different than 'ragging' and should always be well received- but it has to be pertinent to be of value. It's difficult to form an accurate critique of a process unless a person has actually been through it first handed from being in both an owners and judge's shoes.

As stated before, 'allowed', 'approved' and 'automatic deductions for repros' or similar concepts are not part of the judging vernacular or process. Possibly some of the inaccurate misconceptions from 'that other website' have clouded your perspective? There's nothing stopping an owner from making whatever changes he likes to his vehicle and either undoing them or leaving them as-is during judging.

I disagree with the concept of relaxing the rules simply to ensure that more cars get a Top Flight. It's not intended to be a 'no child left behind' ego-boosting award.

I see that you're in Ontario. I'd suggest that you hook up with that chapter and attend a few of their events to see in person how things really work. If you're closer to Quebec, you'd be welcome to become part of our chapter as well.

hmmmm I have been misinterpreted. Probably my fault. Its very hard to "undo a welded plate for safety gear". The reference to internet/gps etc, is something that will impact the industry, so now is the time to think about how you handle it.

I would love to attend events, unfortunately they would have to be close. My max distance is about 150 miles and that has to be round trip. Seeing a surgereon in Jan, so may be able to go farther than that if successful.

My reference to people that are unhappy was only stated when 2 people responded with exactly that comment on this thread. So it was not hypothetical data. Just read back, on this particular thread.

This is not unlike doing a Poll. You canvas 50 respondants and if 5 do not agree then you have a weighting to apply for a total census based on the question you have asked.

About 25 people have replied on this thread, 2 expressed a "feeling of not part of the gang"
You extrapolate that across the 50,000 members and realize that may represent quite a few people. So statisitcally it was worthy of mention.

The thread migrated somewhat from NOS/Repro only in about the last 10 posts. So we got taken off the beaten track I suppose.

[Mark D.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Dennis,

I defend your right to express your opinion. With regard to your health issues, I (and I'm absolutely certain everyone else here) hopes and prays you will be as healthy and happy as possible. I also hope you will be in a position to attend future events and be an active member of NCRS.

I also defend my right to express my opinion. My opinion is that your opinion is uninformed. You don't have a clue how this club operates, yet you flap your gums (keyboard) like some over bloated self righteous know it all. The NCRS judging system is fair and makes numerous allowances for those that wish to modify their car from original. NCRS encourages driving and enjoying these cars. NCRS also encourages showing and judging. There is room for everyone here whether they be rich or, not so rich.

I can't figure out what you 'really' want to say. One minute it sounds like you don't like rich people, then it sounds like you don't like purists. I'm not sure why you are here but people like you have been here before...briefly.

Put three point harnesses in your car, put a continental kit on it, paint the turd lime green if you want....nobody here really cares. Thing is, when you bring it out to have it judged, don't expect this organization to change completely to meet your wishes. You should have known the rules before you joined. If you knew the rules before you joined and decided you were going to change the organization starting with the two week anniversary of your membership, then that's just plain absurd.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and close your mouth and open your ears.

Mark

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Dennis,

I defend your right to express your opinion. With regard to your health issues, I (and I'm absolutely certain everyone else here) hopes and prays you will be as healthy and happy as possible. I also hope you will be in a position to attend future events and be an active member of NCRS.

I also defend my right to express my opinion. My opinion is that your opinion is uninformed. You don't have a clue how this club operates, yet you flap your gums (keyboard) like some over bloated self righteous know it all. The NCRS judging system is fair and makes numerous allowances for those that wish to modify their car from original. NCRS encourages driving and enjoying these cars. NCRS also encourages showing and judging. There is room for everyone here whether they be rich or, not so rich.

I can't figure out what you 'really' want to say. One minute it sounds like you don't like rich people, then it sounds like you don't like purists. I'm not sure why you are here but people like you have been here before...briefly.

Put three point harnesses in your car, put a continental kit on it, paint the turd lime green if you want....nobody here really cares. Thing is, when you bring it out to have it judged, don't expect this organization to change completely to meet your wishes. You should have known the rules before you joined. If you knew the rules before you joined and decided you were going to change the organization starting with the two week anniversary of your membership, then that's just plain absurd.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and close your mouth and open your ears.

Mark

This has truly got ridiculous. I reiterated comments that were posted here. Not my own. Amazing distortion of what has happened here.

Ahh I see now, you were the fellow that took my point out of context once before and I caught you.
You had insinuated I wdidn't like judging, now I remember. So its a get even thing with you is it? Thats fine. Here is the little tit for tat we had I actually said this

You said

Originally Posted by Mark Donnally (13264)
You've been a member of NCRS for two weeks, how many times have you been judged?

When I actually said:

Should judges allow 3 point harnesses in all old cars even if not built with them? I would hate for someone to be killed because they wanted to get an extra 10 points. That is what I find distasteful about judging. It literally encourages people to put there life at risk to achieve a specific point level.

[Erv M.]

Re: One persons opinion:

I do understand the cost of chasing a topflite. Let's be honest, the focus of this organization is just that; restore and obtain a topflite. If this is not true there would not be Club, Regional or National gatherings that the sole emphasis is judging a car. I believe that is why so many come and go as active members. After you obtain the highest flite desired there isn't much to keep you connected.

Let us not fool ourselves, this is an expensive hobby. Yes you could term it as a rich man's endeavor.