Engine pad numbers missing

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Just to be clear, if I have a correct dated and cast block with it's original broach and pad stamps but not original/correct to the car it would only receive 50 point deduction because of the vin and engine assembly suffix stamp, the broach would receive it's 38 points.

If that's the case, it's better to leave it alone and not worry about stamp pad.

[Michael J.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Just to be clear, if I have a correct dated and cast block with it's original broach and pad stamps but not original/correct to the car it would only receive 50 point deduction because of the vin and engine assembly suffix stamp, the broach would receive it's 38 points.

If that's the case, it's better to leave it alone and not worry about stamp pad.

Now that's an interesting fact. So one NOM would get 88 pts. deducted if restamped as original, while another NOM only gets 50 deducted while carrying an incorrect code and VIN. Not sure what the logic is here compared to NCRS vision of originality, but then again many of these things are not logical, just rules....

[Michael W.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Now that's an interesting fact. So one NOM would get 88 pts. deducted if restamped as original, while another NOM only gets 50 deducted while carrying an incorrect code and VIN. Not sure what the logic is here compared to NCRS vision of originality, but then again many of these things are not logical, just rules....

Not quite correct and there's very simple consistent logic behind the rules, nothing arbitrary. The concept is simple- each of the three stamp pad elements is judged independently of the others. The full 88 points would be lost only if the VIN derivative AND the engine machine code AND the pad surface are not typical factory production in appearance.

Whether the engine is a restamped original and/or is NOM (or not) is irrelevant. Trying to push this additional factor into the judging just muddies the water further.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

The reason I posted is because I have such a block correct for my 63 coupe in my basement that's dated three days from the original block that's in the car. This block is better than the original in that the original is .060 and the basement (spare) block is standard bore. It's stamping is from a Impala SS with 300hp auto trans and broach is clearly visable.

I always wanted 340hp :-)

[Michael J.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

The reason I posted is because I have such a block correct for my 63 coupe in my basement that's dated three days from the original block that's in the car. This block is better than the original in that the original is .060 and the basement (spare) block is standard bore. It's stamping is from a Impala SS with 300hp auto trans and broach is clearly visable.

I always wanted 340hp :-)

Very interesting, so it doesn't even need to be a Corvette or even a Chevy engine I guess?

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Michael,

Incorrect numbers are incorrect numbers, it's the same Flint built block that got a different stamp..

[Mark L.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Some years ago I restored a 66 that had lost it's original engine. I found (very lucky that day) another Corvette engine of the same HP that came out of a car that was 6 or 7 cars away on the vin number. The decision was to leave the engine as it was and suffer a 25 point deduction for the vin deviation. Because the NCRS judging system allowed that it provided incentive to retain at least some originality ie original stamp and pad....except from another car. The car ultimately received a Duntov award. As a side note I notice that Bloomington Gold has just this year changed their rules to also allow this type of thing.

[Michael J.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Michael,

Incorrect numbers are incorrect numbers, it's the same Flint built block that got a different stamp..

Right, I see what you mean. It wouldn't matter if it were from an Impala, BelAir, Olds, Pontiac, or GMC truck, as long as it has any original pad surface from the factory and has the correct casting date and casting code for the same type engine as the Corvette it is in, they are all the same and would all lose 38 less points than a restamped as original type block of the same configuration. I'm just saying that IMO seems like odd logic that it should be that way, but rules are rules and if the stamp pad is totally independently judged from anything else then it is understandable.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Right, I see what you mean. It wouldn't matter if it were from an Impala, BelAir, Olds, Pontiac, or GMC truck, as long as it has any original pad surface from the factory and has the correct casting date and casting code for the same type engine as the Corvette it is in, they are all the same and would all lose 38 less points than a restamped as original type block of the same configuration. I'm just saying that IMO seems like odd logic that it should be that way, but rules are rules and if the stamp pad is totally independently judged from anything else then it is understandable.

Michael,

I am sure the point deduct is that way to discourage restamps and counterfeits. If the broach is absent and circular broach is visable (machine shop decking), the stamps can't be original so 88 point deduction.

[Michael J.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Michael,

I am sure the point deduct is that way to discourage restamps and counterfeits. If the broach is absent and circular broach is visable (machine shop decking), the stamps can't be original so 88 point deduction.

I'm sure your right, that has to be the logic and motive. It does leave some people out in the cold for unknowingly and in ignorance trying to get the car back as original as possible. There are so many non-original parts that appear as original it seems funny the engine is so sacred. I had a friend who had his old '68 Buick restamped as original when he restored it, since it was not a high dollar car and he planned to keep it and was particular about all the numbers being correct for his enjoyment. But some people in the Buick group were shocked he would do it and suggested it was illegal or at least immoral and unethical. He was always very upfront about the numbers on all of the car and wasn't trying to misrepresent anything. I am a bit concerned that some groups would impute a motive for restamping without any information, and thus you are presumed guilty of nefarious motives. I am glad to see Bloomington move away from this and provide categories for restamped engine Corvettes, if NCRS were to do it that would simplify the whole thing and their lives, but I'm not holding my breath for any changes.

[Roy S.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Guys you all need to stop trying to reinvent something NCRS fixed 20 plus years ago. Frankly if you don’t understand the standard deduction posted earlier you should attempt to gain an understanding before you assume NCRS is incorrect or does not understand. Just because other organizations waited over 20 years to fix their issue don’t assume NCRS has not already handled it and handled it quite efficiently.

Broach marks are worth 38 points. Can original broach marks no longer be visible due to age? Sure., Could that surface be deemed original and given 38 points. Sure. But you better be sure before you give it 38 points as an original surface that what you are looking at is a surface with broach marks which are not visible due to ageing not a surface that has broach marks which are no longer visible because of attempts at creating broach marks, or because of circular mill marks, or because of something else!!!!

If broach marks are not visible do you lose 88 points? No. I can think of many cases where original pads were lightly surfaced to square a block which caused the original broach marks to go away but allowed the original machine code and vin derivative to stay.
NCRS currently does it right, The pad surface, the machine code or the machine code and vin derivative are separate sets of points a pad can lose 25, 38, 50, 63 or 88 points. none of those require the owner to miss our highest award or claim something is or is not original for the sake of an award. If the deviations exist we deduct for them. If they are undetectable how do you know they exist?

[Michael J.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

OK, I totally understand, thank you for your time and efforts.

[Bruce D.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

OK guys, please bear with me, but since I started this I wold like to recap my understanding of the above. Thanks to Roy and Dick and others for their input. In referencing the judging manual and the article that Roy had in the Restorer V37 #2 in the Fall of 2010, I will make these points as a recap since I need to feel good about my next steps.

1. In the Restorer on page 45, Roy states that stampiong a block to conform to the date/serial number of the original engine is a correct step to take to solve this problem of missing numbers (with the proper casting dates).
2. In subsequent conversation with Roy on this question his answer to me is that the restamping situation including the broach marks will "be judged ans any other reporduction part using our 5 criteria, and will not carry any automatic dedcution just because it is not 100% factory original but rather vs how it campares to factory original" keeping in mind the note in the judging manual about no partial credit.
3. Roy's statement above about giving credit about "not a surface that has broach marks which are no longer visible because of attempts at creating broach marks" is not perfectly clear. I asume he means the absence of broach marks and not the reproduction/recreation of broach marks that look like factory?
4. I also understand that the VIN number stamping and the Engine build number stamping is judged BEFORE the broach marks and that incorrect broach marks do not wipe out any points for good numbers.

Sorry for those of you that don't want any more of this thread, but I do appreciate all of you who were trying to add value to the discussion and the understanding for those of us trying to comply and understand the spirit and the specifics of the rules.

thanks

[Chris S.]

Re: Engine pad numbers missing

Content deleted per Roy Sinor's request