Ethics Question

[Jim H.]

An authentic build sheet indicates a '66 was built with a particular original engine (427/435). The original engine is long since gone. We can verify what engine it shipped with and can obtain an original block with correct casting and build numbers and rebuild to OEM specs. Is it ethical to deck the block and restamp it w/ the '66 VIN and correct engine suffix? The engine build date will be a guesstimate and the broaching will be good but obviously not original. What disclosures are required or recommended? Is this a good or bad idea?

[Mike M.]

Re: Ethics Question

no 66's were built with a 427/435hp engine. the highest hp engine available in 66 was a 427/425hp(if you doubt the 450 hp decal was installed on the arly soilid lifter bbc's.) mike

[Al R.]

Re: Ethics Question

Not recommended on my part. A future owner may not be as honest during his selling process and mis-represent the engine as original to the car. Just my 2cents.

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethics Question

Do you mean a 427/425 HP, or is it a '67. What's the engine code on the "build sheet" and where did it come from.

Duke

[Anthony P.]

Re: Ethics Question

1st thing IMO no way don't do it, 2nd thing IMO I agree with Mike I never heard of a 66 with that engine option didn't know it was available!!

[Jim H.]

Re: Ethics Question

no 66's were built with a 427/435hp engine. the highest hp engine available in 66 was a 427/425hp(if you doubt the 450 hp decal was installed on the arly soilid lifter bbc's.) mike

Mike, My fat fingers and lack of proofreading skills apologize. This is an L72 427/425. Al, I hear you about what may happen in the future. I can leave the pad blank as it is now but that still affords a future owner opportunity for mischief. If I want to restore back to original as much as possible, I have few options. There's no way to brand the title and any paper I may create can get separated from the car. Do I have to intentionally avoid building a correct engine due to potential future fraud?

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethics Question

What disclosures are required or recommended?

To whom- A future buyer, or for NCRS judging. Big difference.

[Jim H.]

Re: Ethics Question

To whom- A future buyer, or for NCRS judging. Big difference.

From the NCRS judging guides, it appears that representing a car as something it never was (i.e, stamped BBC in an original small car) is counterfeiting but replacing an engine case with an equivalent case is not. So, the NCRS standard seems to be a much lower standard than would apply in the general sales market.

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

I once bought a car just like that, but the seller didn't disclose that it wasn't the original engine, it had a beautiful VIN and engine code stamp and the casting and date codes all fit the car's build date, and perfect broach marks and was listed and represented by the dealer as "numbers match". It even passed some NCRS judging. I had the original build sheet verified, it was legit, but, when I tracked down all the owners and found out it couldn't be the original engine, I felt I had been lied to and cheated. Full disclosure on all these things is necessary IMO. But after you sell it full disclosure, then what happens? Real problems IMO, I wouldn't do it.

[Jim H.]

Re: Ethics Question

I once bought a car just like that, but the seller didn't disclose that it wasn't the original engine, it had a beautiful VIN and engine code stamp and the casting and date codes all fit the car's build date, and perfect broach marks and was listed and represented by the dealer as "numbers match". It even passed some NCRS judging. I had the original build sheet verified, it was legit, but, when I tracked down all the owners and found out it couldn't be the original engine, I felt I had been lied to and cheated. Full disclosure on all these things is necessary IMO. But after you sell it full disclosure, then what happens? Real problems IMO, I wouldn't do it.

So, to play devil's advocate for a moment, if the objective of NCRS judging is to evaluate the car "as it left the factory," why is such a restamp not grounds for automatic disqualification and only a points deduction if, for example, the broaching is incorrect?

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

So, to play devil's advocate for a moment, if the objective of NCRS judging is to evaluate the car "as it left the factory," why is such a restamp not grounds for automatic disqualification and only a points deduction if, for example, the broaching is incorrect?

Beats me, you would have to ask Roy that, but so many are restamped blocks these days, as well as restamped alternators, and other parts, etc. where do you draw the line? How about a repaint not the original color? Total disqualification?

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethics Question

So, to play devil's advocate for a moment, if the objective of NCRS judging is to evaluate the car "as it left the factory," why is such a restamp not grounds for automatic disqualification and only a points deduction if, for example, the broaching is incorrect?

Very simple and obvious answer. Flight judging does not authenticate or certify any detail of the car except VIN and trim tags. As you stated above, there is a difference between restoration and counterfeiting. If it is not counterfeiting to repaint a red car red or reupholster a black leather car with black leather, why would it be counterfeiting to restamp or rebroach a block, restoring it a former condition?

On the other hand, there is a process whereby an option that was not fitted to the car at original build will take a complete deduct during judging and remain that way at future meets until such time as the non-original option is removed. If a base engine car somehow grew a high HP big block, each and every feature of the RPO would take a complete deduct, most likely rendering it to 2nd or 3rd Flight.

Sounds fair to me.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Ethics Question

An authentic build sheet indicates a '66 was built with a particular original engine..... The original engine is long since gone. We can verify what engine it shipped with and can obtain an original block with correct casting and build numbers and rebuild to OEM specs. Is it ethical to deck the block and restamp it w/ the '66 VIN and correct engine suffix? The engine build date will be a guesstimate and the broaching will be good but obviously not original. What disclosures are required or recommended? Is this a good or bad idea?

Have you have your build sheet authenicated by the NCRS document group? If not, that should be the first action in the decision process. If it does prove to be real, go ahead and restore the car with the correct engine. Don't be surprized if the pad gets busted for the broach marks though. I'll bet big blocks get an extra dose of scrutiny on the field.

You can disclose that you have a restoration engine on the green sheets prior to judging. This will not affect the score unless it doesn't appear to be a typical pad.

tc

[Greg C.]

Re: Ethics Question

Kind of curious what the point would be... do you have a goal of building a Top Flight car and this is the one thing that will make or break that goal?

Its obvious that you are not out to be a counterfeiter, as you probably wouldn't have posted your question here.

I think you should do what will help you sleep better at night. You will always know in your heart what the real deal is... There is not a lot of difference to me in telling people that, "I had the pad re-stamped to match the car", and "Its a replacement engine".

Tough choices... but I think I'd just leave it blank.

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

Have you have your build sheet authenicated by the NCRS document group? If not, that should be the first action in the decision process. If it does prove to be real, go ahead and restore the car with the correct engine. Don't be surprized if the pad gets busted for the broach marks though. I'll bet big blocks get an extra dose of scrutiny on the field.

You can disclose that you have a restoration engine on the green sheets prior to judging. This will not affect the score unless it doesn't appear to be a typical pad.

tc

A re-stamp, disclosed or discovered, is about 85 points total deduction, if I remember correctly.