Ethics Question

[William F.]

Re: Ethics Question

This comes up a lot, doesn't it? I understand the judging criteria and the "NCRS doesn't 'certify' anything", but if we give a top flight without saying whether engine, which is the heart and soul of a Corvette, is original or not and Bloomington does, I think this decreases respect for an NCRS top flight, making it less meaningful. I've voiced this before and Roy Sinor replied that it is what it is and not going to change it, ,but I'm just saying that NCRS needs to be listening and consider looking at this differently. If we're afraid of lawsuits, get legal advice on a "hold harmless clause", etc. to protect the judges and NCRS.

[Tony S.]

Re: Ethics Question

Is it true that with BG judging that if an owner presents his car for judging and in good faith represents that the engine is the original engine, but it is "decided" during BG judging that it is not the original engine, that BG reserves for itself the right to contact the owner's local county prosecutor for the purpose of having the owner criminally prosecuted?

I've heard this from two very respected owners/collectors who have had their cars judged at BG.

[Patrick B.]

Re: Ethics Question

I'm just going on what happened to my restamped engine at a regional. The block casting dates, etc. were correct, but the whole 88 points were deducted for my restamped VIN derivative and engine code and date, along with the surface. It had passed before in previous judging. Here is a picture of it:

I think the judges told me the reasoning was that since it was restamped like original, but was a restamp, then nothing on the pad was original and thus NTFP.

Michael:

The appearance of your pad including the grain is really excellent. It's hard to see why it would be questioned. Were you given any specific reason why its appearance was not correct? Are judges required to explain the faults they percieve or can they just turn up their noses Bloomington-style?

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethics Question

Is it true that with BG judging that if an owner presents his car for judging and in good faith represents that the engine is the original engine, but it is "decided" during BG judging that it is not the original engine, that BG reserves for itself the right to contact the owner's local county prosecutor for the purpose of having the owner criminally prosecuted?

I've heard this from two very respected owners/collectors who have had their cars judged at BG.

Why not read the BG standards and learn?

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/documents/TheStandards.pdf

FYI - nothing listed in them regarding legal prosecution.
Methinks the "respected owners/collectors" didn't read the standards either.

[Tony S.]

Re: Ethics Question

Methinks you didn't answer my question. Nothing contained in your link suggests that these bullet points contain the full BG rules.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethics Question

Methinks you didn't answer my question. Nothing contained in your link suggests that these bullet points contain the full BG rules.

Then you should use your Google-foo and look them up just like I did:

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/EngineStampStandardsSegments.htm

And no, none of them refer to legal prosecution.

If you wish for even more information I'd suggest contacting Bloomington Gold for clarification:

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=contact

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

Yes, you have to be honest. I also once told a judge who looked really tired and hot not to crawl under my '66 to inspect the side-pipes since it was an AO Smith body, he appreciated my honesty.

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

After they know it is a re-stamp, no explanations were necessary, obviously it was not NTFP.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethics Question

Yes, you have to be honest.

It has nothing to do with honesty when it comes to the judging process (I say that with a bit of hesitation, but follow along).
The goal of judging is to present a car and see how a panel of (quasi-) experts judges the car. We try and make convertible tops appear like original, paint appear original, stickers appear original, you name it. Generally we don't report every part to every judging team and let them know it's a reproduction or an original unless the judges make an obvious error that we know to not be correct. That's part of the process and it is expected.

To bypass this and tell the judges that the engine has been replaced and restamped when you didn't tell them anything else about the car, well.. you gave away your own points. And, to the discredit of the judges, if the pad looked like it should have in 1967 then they should have given you the points no matter what you told them. It doesn't appear that either one of those things happened. Had they asked you after judging the car if it was a restamped/restoration motor and you admitted it, that's being honest. To come out and say it before the car is done being judged....

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethics Question

After they know it is a re-stamp, no explanations were necessary, obviously it was not NTFP.

Not true; see my above answer.

If it looks correct it passes. A restamped pad can look entirely TFP.

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

OK, guess I need to "play" the game more shrewdly and close-to-the-vest in the future....but I honestly didn't understand it was a game of "fool the judge". Now I know better.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethics Question

OK, guess I need to "play" the game more shrewdly and close-to-the-vest in the future....but I honestly didn't understand it was a game of "fool the judge". Now I know better.

The short answer - you are correct. Judging is a game and I am by far not the first to say this, and I say it frequently.

As the owner/player you need to arrive with as much knowledge as possible. You need to know your car better than the judges, anticipate your deductions and have supporting documentation for any position you might take. Know the JG and the Judging Reference Material as much as possible.

As the judge/player we need to arrive with as much knowledge as possible not only of the car in question but also the process. We need to educate the owner in all aspects including what we need - and don't need - to know. And, we need to be able to evaluate cars fairly no matter what the circumstances.

FWIW it appears that the judges may have also incorrect in taking off for your pad unless it was a horribly done restamp. It doesn't appear to fit in that category so in my opinion they also let you down.

Patrick

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

Thank you very much Patrick, I do appreciate your insights and experience. I have taken two C2s through the process from chapter to regionals over the last 4 years, but want and need to learn more about this. I have decided to sign up for as many judging schools and judging retreats as I can find, so starting soon I hope to get better educated. I am also still working on my '67 (which was top flight in chapter, but barely missed in regionals a few years ago), and may bring it back after I correct many things to get that extra point or two to get it up. I am sorry I hi-jacked the OP's thread about ethics, it just seemed natural for me since I seem to be the only one here who has (or admits) to having a re-stamped pad that has been through several rounds of judging and my personal experience with being a re-stamp owner who didn't know it when it was purchased. Sorry James Hughes,

[Tom L.]

Re: Ethics Question

Bob, what I'm getting from your post is that a re-stamp is OK for a car as long as it isn't trying to be something it isn't, 327 vs. 427 as stayed in your example. Is it correct that in my case, I could put a re-stamp into my NOM '72 as long as the letter in the VIN code matched the engine type (As well as the casting and date)? Since it's the first year that the VIN showed the engine type, a '72 could NOT be counterfit unless the vin tag were altered which is a different problem of course.

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethics Question

As the rules state...(And I'm paraphrasing here) "If the stamping of an engine pad is done to accurately represent how the car came off the assembly line, it will be considered 'Correct' If the car was originally a 327, but now has a 427 and the numbers are changed to represent another car entirely, this would not be accepted"

The bottom line is, that a "Re-Stamp" that is intended to defraud the judges, is.. obviously not allowed..In your case, you are attempting to bring the car back to it's original state.

I'd say, be sure you know what engine the car came with, and you should be fine. On another note, I've known of people who tell the judges right up front that the engine is a Re-Stamp, and inform them that the car came to you with no engine. Better to take care of it right from the start.

Hope this helps

Bob
(9944)

Bob, what I'm getting from your post is that a re-stamp is OK for a car as long as it isn't trying to be something it isn't, 327 vs. 427 as stayed in your example. Is it correct that in my case, I could put a re-stamp into my NOM '72 as long as the letter in the VIN code matched the engine type (As well as the casting and date)? Since it's the first year that the VIN showed the engine type, a '72 could NOT be counterfit unless the vin tag were altered which is a different problem of course.

I'll stick my 2 cents worth in by saying that I disagree with the paraphrasing above of the judging rules. That's not what the rules say or how they are applied. If a pad is not typical of production a deduct is taken. To state that all restamps are done to defraud the judges and are not allowed is incorrect. If the car has been converted from one engine option to another, the engine pad is just one a minor deduction in the overall scheme of things.

Going from the judging rules to 'fraud' and 'counterfeit' in the same sentence is confusing to say the least