Inconsistent Judging?

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

I can offer you an option if you want your car judged in 30 minutes and to pay a lot more money, but I won't do it on the board in public. PM me if you need/want that suggestion. I suspect most of you may not need my help with that.

Thanks, Terry, for the suggestion. I am considering that unnamed venue for next summer. I need another source of aggravation. :-)

Actually, that is an option for me. I am still awaiting word from Amelia Island on whether my car will be invited to participate on the showfield. -Clark

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark, You appoligized about your original posting and that is fine. But now you are starting another controversy concerning national versus regional judging. Why not speak to Roy Sinor privately and get this issue off your mind. Bruce B

Wow, Bruce, I thought this forum was for members to ask questions, which I did. The title of my initial post, here, ended with a question mark. I am in the process of collecting information in order to take an issue to Roy. But, reading his related post, it may be a wasted effort. -Clark

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Any one who judges a car in one third the time (of 90 minutes) in other words 30 minutes, in my opinion isn't doing the car or the owner justice. We pay a lot of money to get these cars to a regional or national and to have them judged only to have them rushed over. It's not fair to the owner.

Russ, no one, certainly not me, wants a judging team to rush during judging. I just wanted to reply so that you know that I agree. I just expressed some surprise that one meet took much longer than I expected.
-Clark

[Terry M.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

We (I actually didn't rent the car; my traveling partner did) didn't park in the garage, but I was told by the desk clerk the fee for NCRS was $4 per day (usually $8 per day), and they were willing./eager to apply it to our hotel bill.

[Mike E.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Inconsistent judging by the highest level people? Anyone watching the umpiring in MLB playoffs? Everyone I ever met was human.

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Roy, thanks for your views but, there was no cheating the system in regard to the car in question. With the attitude expressed by you, the national judging chairman, it may be impossible to have the particular car judged fairly in the future.

For the record, for the car to which I referred, many hours had been spent dulling down the door jambs and other areas that were never factory-buffed. There IS a perceived inconsistency by this member when there is a drastically different result at one meet when the car is in the same originality condition, perhaps slightly better, than at a preceeding meet.

No one has berated a team leader on this forum, certainly not me. Asking questions on this forum cannot constitute berating anyone personally or generally. This forum is to ask questions and to receive answers, correct? There is no reason for anything but respectful comments and suggestions. Your post seems to be accusing me of cheating by using the word "you". I expect you, the national judging chairman, to remain objective and helpful since you are working for the membership.
-Clark

[Don H.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Hi Clark
Roy does not need me to answer for him, and I do not intend to here. But, he is probably in part referring back to this thread:
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...731#post616731

Questions like the one you posed in that thread stick out like a sore thumb in this discussion board. You know of course that when you post such a question about how to make your Amelia Island restored car appear to be as it was produced by St. Louis, it will be read and perhaps commented on by the very people who will be judging your car in the next NCRS judging meet. Then after a meet when you complain that judging is inconsistent, again the very judges who gave their time and backs crawling on the floor to give your car the "fairest" judging effort they possibly could (within time constraints) are reading your post. Some of them might read into your post that you are critical of their efforts.

You are correct, the discussion board is here to allow members to be better informed. However, I do not think every question that comes to mind is well suited for a public discussion board. Some questions should be asked of the most knowledgable members of this club, in private. The Contact List available in the tool bar of the NCRS home page lists the subject matter experts in every category of judging and their personal emails. You might direct some of your questions there for the bottom line on issues of concern like those you voiced here.

ps, I hope you are accepted to AI, and your car brings home a blue rosette there.

[Mark D.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Hi Clark
Roy does not need me to answer for him, and I do not intend to here. But, he is probably in part referring back to this thread:
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...731#post616731

Questions like the one you posed in that thread stick out like a sore thumb in this discussion board. You know of course that when you post such a question about how to make your Amelia Island restored car appear to be as it was produced by St. Louis, it will be read and perhaps commented on by the very people who will be judging your car in the next NCRS judging meet. Then after a meet when you complain that judging is inconsistent, again the very judges who gave their time and backs crawling on the floor to give your car the "fairest" judging effort they possibly could are reading your post. Some of them might read into your post that you are critical of their efforts.

You are correct, the discussion board is here to allow members to be better informed. However, I do not think every question that comes to mind is well suited for a public discusson board. Some questions should be asked of the most knowledgable members of this club, in private.

ps, I hope you are accepted to AI, and your car brings home a blue rosette there.

Thanks, Don. It was good to see you again at the recent Lone Star Regional.

We will have to disagree on the issue you raised of what constitutes an acceptable post topic. I would agree wholeheartedly if a post was a personal attack. My referenced post about White Rain hairspray was just an inquiry, based upon some archived NCRS posts that I read earlier, looking for clarification. I tried the "White Rain" method and found it unacceptable and then spent many hours dulling down that glossy red paint with rubbing compound, using the advice of a well-respected fellow NCRS member.

If any judge, team leader, or national judging chairman read my inquiry post and then formed an opinion that my car was therefore a "cheater" and that they would punish the car or at least overly-scrutinize it at the next meet, shame on them. That would not constitute objectivity, but rather constitute a pre-judgement against a particular car/owner. Would you unbiased readers of this post wonder how you would like to be treated if your car was the object of comment?

By the way, the standard for paint is one of "factory appearance". There can be many methods to achieve this. Posts inquiring into any form of restoration methods should be good for the hobby. But, my concern is not solely about exterior paint judging.

Don, more can be learned from one "customer complaint" than a million notes of thanks to the volunteer judges. I am always amazed at the amount of time members put into judging, attending judging seminars, etc. That is to be commended. I appreciate you and every other member who judges. Constructive criticism should be encouraged on this forum as long as it is not a personal attack.

But, the main argument that I have is that at every one of the five meets that I have taken my car, there are multiple items that the judging teams point out that are either missing or are incorrect in originality (condition is usually never an issue). For example, at the Texas Chapter meet last May, my car received a small deduction for a missing coil condenser, among other items. At neither of the previous two meets (chapter & regional) was this pointed out. I quickly corrected that issue by installing the missing part. At one meet, I took deductions for having the wrong fan. Then, in researching the "fan issue" I discovered that my A/C car had the correct fan, a seven-bladed type that is an original. The judges made an error. At the 2012 national meet, they deducted for a missing upper passenger vent grill. 1965 A/C-equipped cars do not have this upper grill, just the lower one. At one meet a judge complemented me on my car's original S/S wiper blades. Then, at the next meet, the judge told me that the configuration is wrong, that they were from a 1965 sedan, not a Corvette. So, it goes on and on. At every meet, there is something more, as if there is seemingly a never-ending process of finding something wrong that was missed previously.
-Clark

[Don H.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Sorry for adding again to this thread if the pony is dead as a doornail already, but my last comment as to your main argument is this: I am judging quite a lot now, and my car has also been judged at all three levels of meets. I think the most intensive scrutiny my car received was at my first So CAL Chapter meet. It was judged there by several Nat level judges. At Regional, I received deducts for things not commented on at Chapter, and some things that were called wrong at Chapter, were blessed at Regional. I fixed some things called "wrong" at Regional, and then unfixed them after studying the TIMJG and talking to some people. Then at National when eight 65s had to get judged and time was short, some issues were over-looked, and others got more scrutiny than I had previously received. My paint for instance. When all is said and done, the point swing between three years worth of meets after 100s of corrections and improvements were made by me, was percentage points. Overall, despite the line by line tally, my overall scores were very consistent. I chalk that up to dumb luck in some cases, and different levels of judging expertise, and time constraints for the judging in others. No complaints whatsoever on my part, as I think all in all the judging has been exceedingly fair, if not always quite so thorough. All the judges have treated me real well. I hope that you would say the same. I can say as was mentioned above that my experience as a judge has definitely helped me better understand how line by line differences between meets can occur.

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

I think the most intensive scrutiny my car received was at my first So CAL Chapter meet. It was judged there by several Nat level judges. At Regional, I received deducts for things not commented on at Chapter, and some things that were called wrong at Chapter, were blessed at Regional. I fixed some things called "wrong" at Regional, and then unfixed them after studying the TIMJG and talking to some people. Then at National when eight 65s had to get judged and time was short, some issues were over-looked, and others got more scrutiny than I had previously received. No complaints whatsoever on my part, as I think all in all the judging has been exceedingly fair, if not always quite so thorough. All the judges have treated me real well. I hope that you would say the same.

Don, again, thanks for your views. But, I believe that you, with your written experiences, have confirmed that there, indeed, is an inconsistency in NCRS judging. So, my question posed on this forum is confirmed by you if not yet by others. I know that many others are out there, because I have spoken to you at meets.

But, I believe that you and I have far different personalities. I do not know you other than face and name but I would bet that you never "rock the boat". I have a tendency to question authority. While your experience was accepted by you, my experience is turning out to be totally different, mainly after some revelations I have read on this forum today.

Relative newcomers to NCRS may be able to gain a better understanding of the concerns raised by my posts and from those replies such as Don's. Everyone should be aware of other members' experiences and/or concerns. Transparency, except when it comes to privacy/legal issues, should be the order of the day in NCRS.

I wish to go on record by stating that I appreciate all the work that goes into a meet, all the efforts of the judges, their leaders, the host chapter, etc. I have executive experience in another national club of doing the same thing, including hosting a national-level meet and believe me, though NCRS is unique in all the world, I appreciate all the effort that goes into a NCRS judging meet. Also, I want to extend my special thanks to all those who patiently listen to members' concerns.
-Clark

[Dave P.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

So, it goes on and on. At every meet, there is something more, as if there is seemingly a never-ending process of finding something wrong that was missed previously.
-Clark

Clark:

There's an ongoing theme in posts and responses in numerous threads, by many people on the TDB when it comes to interpreting, describing and defending the NCRS Judging System and Standards. It has to do with the personal experience of the individual making the comment / post. This "experience" can be gauged by the person's Judging Level. It's easy to do, and quite telling. Click on the UserName>User Profile> About Me tab> Scroll down to "Judging points in past 12 Months", and Total Judging Points. I've checked yours.

You've done well with your car. You have a Top Flight. If you want to do even better with it, or lower your blood pressure over worrying about why you get "inconsistent results" from meet to meet, spend more time Judging where you will get an idea of how difficult this actually IS to "be consistent", or stop entering it in Flight Judging. Drive your C6 to events as a Sportsman instead.

I can say as was mentioned above that my experience as a judge has definitely helped me better understand how line by line differences between meets can occur.

^^This^^ says it all. Don "gets it". I looked at his User Profile, and understand why. I can identify with Don's assessment, as it is my own experience. The more I participated as a Judge, the better I understood how to work my car through The System as an Owner. My car of its model year is one of two on the planet with the award it has. Crossed Flags. Because of my understanding of how The System works, I find the results of my efforts even more gratifying. My car finished-up in 2008. The same judges that judged it in 06-08 would be the same judges that would judge it tomorrow, if I were to take it back. The National C4 Team personnel haven't changed much since its inception. Would the Flight Judging results be the same? I have no idea, however I suspect they may not be, as we as C4 Judges have learned a lot more about the cars we Judge during the intervening 5 years. Would I consider this "inconsistent judging"? Not at all. It's an evolutionary process. It is what it is, on the day it occurs. My Crossed Flags result should be the same as it was in 08, as assessment of Originality hasn't changed, and neither has the car.

NCRS also has a "Red Hat" for recognition of a Judge that "gets it" because of both his / her Judging Experience AND as a Top Award Recipient. Quite a few of these Red-Hatters respond regularly to Mr. Kirby's criticism in an on-going attempt to educate him as to how the NCRS "System" works.

This education is a tireless, endless, process where ever or when ever it is needed. Not just with Mr. Kirby.

[Clark K.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark: ...It has to do with the personal experience of the individual making the comment / post. This "experience" can be gauged by the person's Judging Level. It's easy to do, and quite telling. Click on the UserName>User Profile> About Me tab> Scroll down to "Judging points in past 12 Months", and Total Judging Points. I've checked yours.

You've done well with your car. You have a Top Flight. If you want to do even better with it, or lower your blood pressure over worrying about why you get "inconsistent results" from meet to meet, spend more time Judging where you will get an idea of how difficult this actually IS to "be consistent", or stop entering it in Flight Judging. Drive your C6 to events as a Sportsman instead.

My car of its model year is one of two on the planet with the award it has. Crossed Flags. Because of my understanding of how The System works, I find the results of my efforts even more gratifying. My car finished-up in 2008. The same judges that judged it in 06-08 would be the same judges that would judge it tomorrow, if I were to take it back. The National C4 Team personnel haven't changed much since its inception. Would the Flight Judging results be the same? I have no idea, however I suspect they may not be, as we as C4 Judges have learned a lot more about the cars we Judge during the intervening 5 years. Would I consider this "inconsistent judging"? Not at all. It's an evolutionary process. It is what it is, on the day it occurs. My Crossed Flags result should be the same as it was in 08, as assessment of Originality hasn't changed, and neither has the car...

Dave, congratulations on your car's well-earned award. Also, thanks for being a judge.

I believe that there has been an over-reaction to my original post, asking whether there is any NCRS judging inconsistency, or not. Telling me that my views are based on my judging experience level is facetious. No NCRS member has to be a judge in order to have their car judged. I realize that judging is encouraged but I am usually not interested.
However, if there was a need for NCRS judges, I would step forward.

To disparage me or my post because I have only a few judging points is unfair and elitist. This "NCRS attitude" they called it, was expressed by quite a few collectors when I first bought my vintage Sting Ray. They told me that I was in for a bunch of grief in joining and having my car judged.

Well, I have found NCRS judges to be very polite, helpful, friendly, and even complimentary.
-Clark

[Dick W.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

I can offer you an option if you want your car judged in 30 minutes and to pay a lot more money, but I won't do it on the board in public. PM me if you need/want that suggestion. I suspect most of you may not need my help with that.

Pay yer money and git yer award as long as the pad flies and the trim tag is deemed good

[Paul O.]

Re: Inconsistent Judging?

Clark,


I'm just thinking out loud here but, consider it. BTW, where did you park this year at the Frisco Regional? Were they still charging to park in the parking garage?

Mark

Not unless you knew the secret code plus the secret handshake and $10.