test for ethanol

[Page C.]

Re: test for ethanol

The sideshow theatrics indicate that the fuel contains ethanol which is what the OP question was.

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

The problem today is that the entire fuel logistics system is contaminated with ethanol juiced fuels. And, speaking as a person involved with it for many years, many times the customer is not accurately informed about all that. There is a jobber near where I live that sells "ethanol free" gasoline. But even he admits the pipelines, tankers, tanks, storage systems, etc. are so saturated with ethanol laced fuel that by the time he gets it, it really is, at best, lower ethanol fuel. The labs we had at the refineries could tell you precisely, but that is a very expensive setup to test. And some think the E85 is so sloppily handled and blended, you could also be getting over E10 in your fuel now. A flex-fuel car is going to be a necessity soon, in my opinion.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

There are some crude test kits for ethanol content in gasoline, like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ethanol-test-kit-percentage-ethanol-gasoline-/270606859688#vi-content

And ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere the longer it is exposed to air and if the relative humidity is high, so it's SG changes to be heavier.

But if you think ethanol is good for your car.....well....

A wise prof gave me some advice while I was preparing to defend my dissertation many decades ago, he said, if you encounter a questioner with their mind made up, just move on, you will never change their mind and just waste your time and energy....I have always tried to follow that advice

Michael------

It seems to me that the folks with their "minds made up" are those that are convinced that ethanol in fuel is bad. Folks that "have their minds made up" that ethanol is not a problem in fuel have based it on long-term use with no demonstrable problems experienced. That's where I stand. We've had it in California for a very long time. Even when MTBE was the oxygenate most prevalent (and which I always preferred), there was a lot of gasoline here that used ethanol as the oxygenate. For example, I have an old 1989 Cadillac Eldorado that I purchased from my mother after my father, who purchased it new, died in 1993. It had very low miles on it when I got it since my father rarely used it. I used it as a to-work car for years and it now has almost 200,000 miles on it. It's been using a steady diet of E10 for at least 10 years and sporadic use of E10 prior to that. It has never had ANY part of the fuel system replaced. However, if something failed tomorrow I don't think I could conclude that ethanol was the culprit. I also have a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP that I purchased new. It now has 100,000 miles on it and has used E10 virtually from day-one. Not a single fuel system problem has occurred and NO fuel system parts have ever been replaced. The car still runs like the day it was brand new,

On the other hand, folks that "have their mind made up" that ethanol is bad usually base this "fact" on what amounts to anecdotal information, "rumors", word-of-mouth claims, unsubstantiated reports, conjecture, personal bias, and the like. So far, everything that I've seen on the negative side of E10 has fallen into one of these categories.

As far as I know, all of the auto manufacturers specifically approve the use of E10 for all of their gasoline powered vehicles. I've got to believe that they have some well-considered basis for this and that exhaustive testing and analysis is behind it.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

The problem today is that the entire fuel logistics system is contaminated with ethanol juiced fuels. And, speaking as a person involved with it for many years, many times the customer is not accurately informed about all that. There is a jobber near where I live that sells "ethanol free" gasoline. But even he admits the pipelines, tankers, tanks, storage systems, etc. are so saturated with ethanol laced fuel that by the time he gets it, it really is, at best, lower ethanol fuel. The labs we had at the refineries could tell you precisely, but that is a very expensive setup to test. And some think the E85 is so sloppily handled and blended, you could also be getting over E10 in your fuel now. A flex-fuel car is going to be a necessity soon, in my opinion.

Michael-----


E85 is a rarity even here in California. The city I live in has a population of about 250,000. There is ONE gasoline station here that sells it. I patronize that station and I rarely see anyone pulled up to the E85 pump. The next station I know of that has E85 is about 20 miles away. So, I don't think there's too much E85 around to contaminate anything.

The price of E85 here is subsidized so that it always sells for significantly less than regular grade E10. However, when the MPG difference is considered, there's no economy to using E85. So, I expect that folks with flex fuel cars don't regularly use it.

[Gary C.]

Re: test for ethanol

Joe,

FWIW, in the last two years I've either had to buy new carbs for my lawn tools or replace them due to ethanol corroding the aluminum carbs. Wished I'd saved one of the carbs to show you a photo.

I now purchase non ethanol fuel in quart cans for $6 a quart.

Gary
....

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

Michael------

It seems to me that the folks with their "minds made up" are those that are convinced that ethanol in fuel is bad. Folks that "have their minds made up" that ethanol is not a problem in fuel have based it on long-term use with no demonstrable problems experienced. That's where I stand. We've had it in California for a very long time. Even when MTBE was the oxygenate most prevalent (and which I always preferred), there was a lot of gasoline here that used ethanol as the oxygenate. For example, I have an old 1989 Cadillac Eldorado that I purchased from my mother after my father, who purchased it new, died in 1993. It had very low miles on it when I got it since my father rarely used it. I used it as a to-work car for years and it now has almost 200,000 miles on it. It's been using a steady diet of E10 for at least 10 years and sporadic use of E10 prior to that. It has never had ANY part of the fuel system replaced. However, if something failed tomorrow I don't think I could conclude that ethanol was the culprit. I also have a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP that I purchased new. It now has 100,000 miles on it and has used E10 virtually from day-one. Not a single fuel system problem has occurred and NO fuel system parts have ever been replaced. The car still runs like the day it was brand new,

On the other hand, folks that "have their mind made up" that ethanol is bad usually base this "fact" on what amounts to anecdotal information, "rumors", word-of-mouth claims, unsubstantiated reports, conjecture, personal bias, and the like. So far, everything that I've seen on the negative side of E10 has fallen into one of these categories.

As far as I know, all of the auto manufacturers specifically approve the use of E10 for all of their gasoline powered vehicles. I've got to believe that they have some well-considered basis for this and that exhaustive testing and analysis is behind it.

Joe, my words of wisdom definitely works both ways, it is a general rule. I also think maybe you think I think ethanol is "bad", I don't for properly equipped cars. I am talking about our vintage, pre-1970s or so ones. And if you read my last post, I am now more concerned about the fuel logistics and blending systems that may be running up the ethanol content above 10% due to sloppy and irresponsible players. I don't want to violate my rule of not arguing with those with their minds made up, but let's just say I have seen and experienced issues with the newer cars most recently (supercharged ones) where excessive formic acid and water contamination have led to problems. The older cars problems are pretty well documented, so I am guessing you wouldn't argue with that, or no?

[Michael J.]

Re: test for ethanol

My wife's Caddy flex-fuel has had E85 in it once in the last year, when the price dipped low enough to justify it. But we in New Mexico have E85 everywhere, many many stations sell it, and that is worrisome, especially when their tankers are basically unmarked trucks coming from who knows where.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

Joe, my words of wisdom definitely works both ways, it is a general rule. I also think maybe you think I think ethanol is "bad", I don't for properly equipped cars. I am talking about our vintage, pre-1970s or so ones. And if you read my last post, I am now more concerned about the fuel logistics and blending systems that may be running up the ethanol content above 10% due to sloppy and irresponsible players. I don't want to violate my rule of not arguing with those with their minds made up, but let's just say I have seen and experienced issues with the newer cars most recently (supercharged ones) where excessive formic acid and water contamination have led to problems. The older cars problems are pretty well documented, so I am guessing you wouldn't argue with that, or no?

Michael-----


Actually, I think that our older cars can be relatively easily "fortified" for use of E10. Replace the rubber fuel lines with E10 compliant pieces, replace the fuel pump with a pump with E10 compliant innards, and put an E10 compliant kit in the carburetor. Done. All of the aforementioned are regular maintenance items anyway.

Might the E10 have a corrosive effect on the internals of the old carburetors? Well, maybe, but the scavengers used in old-time leaded gasoline were pretty hard on these carburetors, too. In fact, REAL HARD. What about TBW fuel lines? As far as I know, TBW has been used in many cars that are manufacturer-approved for E10.

By the way, my Grand Prix GTP is supercharged and I've never had any problems with E10.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

Joe,

FWIW, in the last two years I've either had to buy new carbs for my lawn tools or replace them due to ethanol corroding the aluminum carbs. Wished I'd saved one of the carbs to show you a photo.

I now purchase non ethanol fuel in quart cans for $6 a quart.

Gary
....

Gary------


The TBI in my Cadillac Eldorado appears to have an aluminum body and I've never noted the slightest sign of corrosion when I've inspected it. It's still going strong at 24 years old and almost 200,000 miles.

[Gary C.]

Re: test for ethanol

Joe,

Glad you've not had a problem with ethanol. Some cars don't. Luckily my current cars have not since the Feds poked ethanol down us Texans throats.

You might check with a Stihl lawn equipment dealer and see what their shop folks have to say about ethanol.

In 1980 I got transferred from Texas to Omaha, NE. At that time NE and Iowa had State laws that mandated ethanol in the gas. Unsuspecting person that I was, my 1980 Honda drive to work car last two months with ethanol fuel.

MTBE did tremendous amount of damage to automobiles and trucks in Texas. The hotter the weather the more impact it has. As we all know, Texas can be hot in the summer time.

In Texas if you live far enough out in the country you can still purchase non ethanol gas.

Gary
....

[Michael W.]

Re: test for ethanol

The older cars problems are pretty well documented, so I am guessing you wouldn't argue with that, or no?

Actually Michael, not it's not 'pretty well documented' at all. Lots of anecdotal stories, lots of finger pointing and assumptions, but very little documentation. But, if you've got your mind made up...........

[William F.]

Re: test for ethanol

Not quite sure why anyone would endorse ethanol in gasoline. May be all right for your daily driver that uses the fuel before water that ethanol attracts separates ( see GM service article if you don't know this) but we're talking about our vintage Corvettes where gas stays in tank several mos.(unless you've got a beater that you drive every day, maybe a '74). Again, ask Stihl power equipment and outboard motor manufactures if you think ethanol has no ill effects. My original question was ;HOW TO TEST FOR ETHANOL?
Thanks

[Michael W.]

Re: test for ethanol

Again, ask Stihl power equipment and outboard motor manufactures if you think ethanol has no ill effects. My original question was ;HOW TO TEST FOR ETHANOL?
Thanks

Sad to see you think '74s are assumed to being 'daily beaters'.

I recently purchased a new engine for my snow blower. Clearly labelled by the manufacturer as being approved for E10. Also recently purchased a Mercury 60HP four stroke outboard, clearly approved for E10. My winter toys sit for 6 months all summer. My summer toys sit for 6 months over the winter, including the non-'74 non-daily non-beater Corvette. All of them have been fueled more or less exclusively on E10, long before it was called 'E10' and was known as gasahol instead.

I've never had one moment's problem in the last 20 years aside from one chain saw that had been fitted with unsuitable fuel lines. It took ten minutes to fix. No corrosion in the aluminum carburetor or anywhere else. There again, I don't leave open cans of gas lying around

I can't help you with your desire to determine ethanol content, my point in posting was trying to shed some facts and hard evidence that suggests that the sky is not falling. I suspect that was Joe L's goal also.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

Not quite sure why anyone would endorse ethanol in gasoline. May be all right for your daily driver that uses the fuel before water that ethanol attracts separates ( see GM service article if you don't know this) but we're talking about our vintage Corvettes where gas stays in tank several mos.(unless you've got a beater that you drive every day, maybe a '74). Again, ask Stihl power equipment and outboard motor manufactures if you think ethanol has no ill effects. My original question was ;HOW TO TEST FOR ETHANOL?
Thanks

William------


I think that your original question has been answered with the information provided by several responders.

As far as "endorsing" ethanol in gasoline, I'm certainly not doing that. All I'm saying is that I've never had any problems using it and I don't know of any documented automotive problems using it. Would I rather it not be used in gasoline? Absolutely yes. I was completely satisfied with MTBE (even though there were all sorts of reports of it "wrecking fuel systems" when it was the oxygenate of choice). I wish it was still in use today. But, for better or worse, it's not. Ethanol is the only oxygenate in current widespread use. In California at this time one would be hard-pressed to find any automotive gasoline not containing ethanol. Marine and aviation fuel is the exception but that's totally impractical (and illegal) for use in cars driven more than minimal amounts.

By the way, aviation suppliers like Aircraft Spruce or Sporty's Pilot Shop might very well be sources for ethanol test kits. Certain aircraft with STC's can use automotive gasoline but they cannot use automotive gasoline with ethanol. So, presumably, operators of such aircraft would need to test any automotive fuel they contemplate using.

[Joe L.]

Re: test for ethanol

Joe,

Glad you've not had a problem with ethanol. Some cars don't. Luckily my current cars have not since the Feds poked ethanol down us Texans throats.

You might check with a Stihl lawn equipment dealer and see what their shop folks have to say about ethanol.

In 1980 I got transferred from Texas to Omaha, NE. At that time NE and Iowa had State laws that mandated ethanol in the gas. Unsuspecting person that I was, my 1980 Honda drive to work car last two months with ethanol fuel.

MTBE did tremendous amount of damage to automobiles and trucks in Texas. The hotter the weather the more impact it has. As we all know, Texas can be hot in the summer time.

In Texas if you live far enough out in the country you can still purchase non ethanol gas.

Gary
....

Gary------


If carburetors in these small engines are quickly destroyed by E10 then I'd say there can't be any of these engines running in California. I don't know of a source for non E-10 gasoline in this state except marine and aviation. I know there's no non E10 available in the San Francisco Bay Area.