1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

[Dick W.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

I think that most experienced judges will get the Team Leader and the Judging Chair to eyeball before making the call on a pad. Being out on an island of one is very lonely

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

OK, thanks guys, I understand. I just get kinda sheepish asking this kind of stuff out on the judging field, would like to understand it all but know lots of questions at the meets might not be the best place to ask. As I am about to start all this over again on my '67 after a couple of iterations, I don't want to say the wrong things to the judges.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

OK, thanks guys, I understand. I just get kinda sheepish asking this kind of stuff out on the judging field, would like to understand it all but know lots of questions at the meets might not be the best place to ask. As I am about to start all this over again on my '67 after a couple of iterations, I don't want to say the wrong things to the judges.

MJ, you are welcome at the Advanced Judging Seminars at any Regional or National. Questions are always welcome. They stimulate the conversation. I am sorry we didn't have more time to chat at Hampton.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

MJ, you are welcome at the Advanced Judging Seminars at any Regional or National. Questions are always welcome. They stimulate the conversation. I am sorry we didn't have more time to chat at Hampton.

Thanks Terry, I enjoyed the advanced seminar at the Nationals, and the judging retreat too. They won't be my last for sure. Seems like there are so many things to learn and look at (we spent much time at the Nationals on chassis) the time is always too little. I feel all the judging big rocks have been turned over, and now just a few of my pet rocks () are left over that I want to understand more fully. Enjoyed the short time we had to chat, next time more of that too, cheers and wish me luck at the chapter judging meet.

[Patrick B.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Yes Terry, thanks. But I am wondering how, logically (there goes that science background again), a judge could judge only one TFP? I mean, if the VIN stamp is NTFP, how can the pad surface be TFP if it had to be ground down to put a new VIN on it? I guess they assume it was an un-VIN-stamped pad that still had the engine assembly and date? Just struggling with the logic here of how they are really so independent. I know on my '67, they took it all off at regional, even though I had the tank sticker verifying engine, and the date was OK with the car build and engine casting date. I have also been told my pad broach marks "look good". Picture:

Michael: Nothing in your stamp jumps out as NTFP. Did they give you any reason for the deduction? I would hope that judges would be required to give an explicit reason for a deduction.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

Michael: Nothing in your stamp jumps out as NTFP. Did they give you any reason for the deduction? I would hope that judges would be required to give an explicit reason for a deduction.

Thanks Patrick, no they really didn't give any reasons other than to mention it looked "too perfect", and so their judgement was all the items were NTFP. As I mentioned, I am a bit sheepish about asking questions of the judges (having been a judge in MCA and SAAC before) on the field. After that I became aware, after much research through previous owners, that the engine in the car is not the engine it was born with, so they did spot that. But as I became more knowledgeable about the judging system I have looked back on it and wondered. It will be interesting to see what happens now after 2 years of fixing most all the other punch-list items as I take it back through the judging process.

[Patrick B.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

67-14319.JPG

Thanks Patrick, no they really didn't give any reasons other than to mention it looked "too perfect", and so their judgement was all the items were NTFP. As I mentioned, I am a bit sheepish about asking questions of the judges (having been a judge in MCA and SAAC before) on the field. After that I became aware, after much research through previous owners, that the engine in the car is not the engine it was born with, so they did spot that. But as I became more knowledgeable about the judging system I have looked back on it and wondered. It will be interesting to see what happens now after 2 years of fixing most all the other punch-list items as I take it back through the judging process.

Deducting for the reason that the pad looks "too perfect" is really stupid. How is a restorer going to correct something that is too perfect? While there are factory grind-outs and double stamps, they are the exception. Most stampings are clean clear hits just like yours. I have attached a photo of my original factory stamp that is no less perfect than yours. If judges cannot clearly explain a deduction, I don't see how it can conform to NCRS judging standards.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1970 LS5 Engine Pad Stamp Question- Factory Grind Out or .... ?

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Deducting for the reason that the pad looks "too perfect" is really stupid. How is a restorer going to correct something that is too perfect? While there are factory grind-outs and double stamps, they are the exception. Most stampings are clean clear hits just like yours. I have attached a photo of my original factory stamp that is no less perfect than yours. If judges cannot clearly explain a deduction, I don't see how it can conform to NCRS judging standards.

Wow! Yours look more perfect than mine Patrick. I agree with you about explanations, but this was my first time at a regional, and my lowly '66 L79 was judged well at the same time, so I was a bit unsure how to react to the '67, so I just kept my mouth shut. I had bought it from a well known dealer as "numbers match", but somehow the judges saw something in my pad that looked suspicious, and after a year of searching with Bill Gould's help, they were correct. After having been a judge, I am a bit mellow about it all, but starting now, after my NCRS experiences I will ask more questions. I am not criticizing the NCRS judges, they have to make a call, and I respect that. But, since so many repro-parts and restored parts from other cars are OK since they "appear" original, I think a good restoration engine should be looked at the same way. I don't think this is "fooling" the judges and the system, just following the rules as laid out. If the engine pad is indeed three independent scores, it should always be judged as such without assumptions based on one part. Of course this is all IMO.