C1 fuel problem

[John D.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Joe,The rubber hose from the main fuel line to the engine fuel pump. Go to local auto store and ask for a hose that's good enough for ethanol.
Here's a story about rubber hoses and ethanol. In short order the cheap rubber hoses start to separate. Then they come apart and swell up letting little or no fuel go thru. And when they do the fuel is crap.
Have proof.
Buy accelerator pumps that are for alky aka ethanol. Now I understand the old leather acceleraor pumps are a lot better than the rubber ones in the rebuild kits.
There are companies that sell carb kits for ethanol.
Also how old is your fuel. Drain it and put some fresh fuel in the tank. Ethanol separates you know.
Sticking needle and seat can cause this problem too. Old ethanol will just about weld those two parts together. After you get the car started go buy some good fuel injection cleaner and use it according to the instructions. Replace the filter in the fuel bowl also. NAPA has them or our Corvette catalogs have them also.
You cannot let a car sit for 6 months. Only if you are in Canada. Oops. Not supposed to take shots here.
Go on line and type: Pure-Gas.Org. Click on your state and see a list of gas stations that have pure gas. PA has around 38 of them (old info). But most of them are low octane.
Switch to racing fuel or 100LL aviation fuel.
Take the gas cap off and smell the fuel. If the odor knocks your socks off you solved the issue. Good luck. JD
P.S. EThanol is klling some of the fuel pumps also.

[Paul J.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Good ideas....

Just a recommendation of how to change that line to pump hose. The problem is that the fuel will try to siphon out when the hose is removed. You don't have to drain the tank. This is how I do it using a air compressor. Wear safety glasses. Connect a bevel tipped nozzle gun to the compressor hose. Set the compressor regulator to about 10 to 20 psi.

-Remove the gas cap.
-Clamp the fuel line hose near center
-Cut the hose at the pump end, catch any fuel in a pan or rags left in the pump and pump to carb line.
-Insert the air gun nozzle in the cut end of the hose going to the tank.
-Release the clamp and use the nozzle gun to slowly blow the fuel back into the tank. The raised outlet of the empty line and sender pipe will prevent the fuel from siphoning out.
-Release the clamp
-Change the hose

Interesting procedure Rich, but that's a lot of steps.

I just disconnect the tank side fitting and slide my thumb over the end of the incoming line, just long enough to slip on one of the rubber/plastic caps or plugs that come with new/rebuilt parts. I save these caps and plugs for this very purpose, and if you're quick, you'll lose a thimbleful of fuel or less. With the cap on, then I remove the pump side of the hose and reverse the procedure to replace the hose. It only takes a minute. This works for brake lines also, and works on all year/model of cars. Sometimes, like on modern inline quick connect fuel filters, I'll use just my thumb and forgo the cap.

Paul

[Christopher R.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Carter AFBs (and Edelbrock Performers) at one time had accelerator pumps that sealed by means of a leather skirt around the plunger. Not sure if they still come with leather. Or, if by now, they have been replaced with some kind of flexible plastic. When the leather sat submerged in gasoline all day long, the leather never dried out, and it sealed just fine. But now that gas evaporates much more quickly than before and our cars aren't used every day, this leather skirt dries out. When it dries out, it doesn't seal very well, and you don't get a sufficient squirt when you pump the accelerator pedal. In the old days, people solved this problem by installing an accelerator pump made for marine applications of these carbs. I see Jegs and Summit still sell an accelerator pump for Edelbrock Performers in marine applications. I believe the skirt on these pumps is made of a material that is unaffected by ethanol and doesn't dry out. Might be viton. If you think old car people hate ethanol, you ought to talk to boaters.

If you're thinking that I only have half an understanding of this problem, you'd be right. But I put one of these marine accelerator pumps in my 3269S AFB years ago, and it still works great.

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Granted, I have let the car sit a little too long - sometimes "Life" just gets in the way. But lucky for me I live in Florida (lots of boaters) and "ethanol free" gas is available less than 5 miles from my house - so I routeinly use it - not 100% of the time but as often as I can. - since the first thing I discovered with this was a leaking hose between the fule line and the fuel pump - problem should be between here and the carborators. I just ordered a line from CC but they said there are production problems and this line may not be available for a while - so NAPA it may be after all. I wanted to be a little more "correct" but that may not be possible at this point in time. Electrical issue first then back to the gas.
Thanks for the help.
Joe

[Joe M.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Don't wait on CC. There has been a problem with their vendor for well over a year. At least 2 years ago, CC recalled the hose that I had just purchased and installed. Go with NAPA hose to get back on the road.

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Thanks - I need to call them up and cancel that order. Is there another vendor or is "correct" not reasonable here/ BTW - I like correct but I do not plan to have the car judged. It is a great looking driver - but it is a car that I drive (but obvously not often enough) not one that is only for show - I love the look of a NCRS top flight car (and really appreciate all the work that goes into one) but this one will not make that grade.

Joe

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

IMAG0386.jpgMay have found at least part of the problem to the starter issue As suggested I went under and checked the connections to the starter and solenoid and all seemed fine - started working backwards, took ignition shielding off and found wires all matted and fused together. Who know why - maybe just old (may be original wiring harness for all I know) Anyway looks like another project before I get to the starter issue that needs to be solved before I can figure out the gas line issue. Gremlins and dominos. One thing just leads into another. Now it looks like I may be replacing a wiring harness.
Joe

[Dan D.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Joe,

This is not normal old wire harness wear. The harness has been burned up from excess current. A short somewhere has fried the wiring. This very well could be your starter problem - fused wires. The short could be in the solenoid, but you need to determine and fix the short before battery power is again applied to the car. You will need a new engine harness for sure.

-Dan-

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Agree Dan,
Any thoughts on how to find the short? I would think that a bad solenoid would just keep the starter engaged, similar to keeping the key turned after the car has started, right? - so do you think the short could be in the wiring harness itself - or someplace else and if so where and how should I look - I would rather not put in a new harness just to burn it up again. Any thoughts would be most appreciated.
Joe

[Dan D.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Joe,

Yes, do not burn it up again, by all means.

Take the starter off and to a repair shop and have it tested. For sure, there was a short to ground somewhere. When replacing the harness, un-tape the old harness and follow the melted wires. This should lead you to the source. An ohmmeter is a good instrument to check for shorts. By the looks of the burned wires the short was in the area of the coil and resistor - ignition lead, starter 12V bypass to the coil. Follow these wires in the harness and see if it will lead you to the source.

As a safety check once you have replaced everything, temporarily connect a 30 amp in-line fuse in the battery feed wire on the solenoid. Leave this in place until you are sure the system no longer has a short. Make sure you have a battery cutoff switch and be prepared to open it quickly if you need to.

A problem with these cars is several electrical items have no short circuit protection. Namely cigarette lighter, ignition switch, wiper motor (circuit breaker inside the motor), ammeter, generator, regulator, horns, to name a few.

Good Luck - and pray for warm weather. I am grounded here in upstate NY too.

-Dan-

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Thanks Dan, very helpful.
When I was tracing the problem and took off the ignition shielding one of the wires was melted to the shielding (may be that was the cause - maybe the result - don't know) - as I think thru the problem - first symptom was that starter engaged when I hooked up the battery - so even if solenoid or starter was bad - would that overheat the wiring? Solenoid is easy to replace and not that expensive - so maybe I should do that anyway (but hate to just replace parts (like a bubba mecanic) just because I don't know what the problem is). Your advice to connect a 30 amp fuse between the battery and the solenoid is a good one. Blow the fuse and I know I still have a short, without burning out another wiring harness. Looks like there is a crack in the coil as well so maybe that caused a short - probably should replace that - the wire from the coil to the resister was "toast" as well. I appreciate your help.
Joe

[Dan D.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Yes, it could be, and probably is the top shield short. The ignition wire from the ignition switch to the coil is not fused. A short to ground will burn it. But I don't see how this will spin the starter.

Where is the coil cracked? The phenolic top or the metal tube? A cracked coil is not good and should be replaced. The coil is oil filled and if not sealed oil will escape.

The fuse will go in series with the 12ga gauge red wire that feeds the car. Between the wire and the solenoid stud. If connected to the battery normal starter current will blow the fuse.

-Dan-

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Coil cracked on top - will send a picture tomorrow. Still have not reasoned out the starter issue.
More thought.
Thanks again, Joe

[Richard M.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

Wow, the plot thickens. Sorry for your troubles Joe. Dan is onto it. I agree that you probably had a short to ground somewhere, likely the green coil+ wire to the grounded shield, but......

I see a problem why your wiring had issues all along and may have been stressed, in addition to a possible dead short somewhere. May be the reason you have a cracked coil too.

Coil....
Is your coil marked "Requires External Ballast Resistor"?
If so.......It looks to me that your harness is miswired at the ballast. The right side of your ballast is where the Brown Ign feed goes to. This also feeds the Wiper motor +12v. You have the Green coil+ wire there too, which means you are getting a constant 12v to the coil at all times when in RUN. Now if the coil is marked as "Internal Ballast", then this isn't a issue. But if your coil is cracked it could be because it's been getting high voltage at all times.

Also on the same topic, your left side ballast has that Green wire which goes to the Solenoid "R" terminal. Again, if coil uses "External Ballast", the coil + should also be connected to that Grn "R" wire, so coil gets full 12v when in "Crank" only.

Ignore all of the above if I got the coil type wrong, or if you're running a Pertronix or other electronic ignition module, but I don't see that type of wiring. It looks stock for standard distributor contact points to me.

Solenoid & Starter.....
I suspect it's fine, and because of the harness melting, that it's likely the Red +12v feed wire in the harness is shorted to the Purple solenoid wire in there somewhere. You obviously need a new engine harness, but for now you could simply unplug the 3 prong connector at the Ignition switch, and ohm out it's Purple to Red wires and see if shorted. You said as soon as you connect battery it cranks, so this makes sense to me. It's possible the Brown is shorted to Red and Purple as well.

Here's your photo with a few markups I did. (morning coffee helped) ......Rich


JoesWiring_modz1.jpg

[Joseph U.]

Re: C1 fuel problem

WOW Rich thanks,
I have attached pictures of the coil, as well as the crack in it -
I noticed the difference between the picture in the AIM and my wiring at the resistor when I was trying to figure this all out but your explanation is priceless (well it did make tracing the wires thru the wiring diagram a little easier anyway). The only thing I did differently during this whole process was (when the battery was dead dead dead and I was trying to charge it up without success, i did leave the ignition switch in the "ON" position for a little while (not while charging, but after I put the battery back in {while it was still dead, before I took it back to Sears}, as I was checking the cable settings, turning and cleaning - hoping it was a bad connect between the cable and the battery terminal), I wonder if this caused the issue with the wiring miss-wire setup? Anyway I need to order a new harness and coil. Anything else you think I should check before I put in the order? I have to think that the solenoid is OK, suppose I could check by disconnecting the wire from the harness to the solenoid and then connecting the battery again - if solenoid is OK - I should not get a turn of the starter motor, correct? If the solenoid is shot - then starter should still turn. Does that make sense?
Thanks for your help.
Joe
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