1966/427 hot starter problem

[Michael S.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

There is always one of those "ling/ling" starters from Tilton or other aftermarket supplier that are gear reduction with Japanese motors. Not correct but they really do work. Cost about $150 or less depending of the brand.

This type starter is what many OEM's now supply on late model cars. Not correct for judging but very correct for avoiding a no crank condition.

[Michael S.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

There is always one of those "ling/ling" starters from Tilton or other aftermarket supplier that are gear reduction with Japanese motors. Not correct but they really do work. Cost about $150 or less depending of the brand.

This type starter is what many OEM's now supply on late model cars. Not correct for judging but very correct for avoiding a no crank condition.

[Michael H.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

Craig,

I seem to remember the last few digits of the part number being stamped somewhere on the armature but I'm not sure on that. I have an NOS one but it's not here in FL. I think it's a 1940624 in group 2.043.

The field coil was unique to that starter and armature, and also 425 HP. It was a four coil unit instead of a typical three coil/shunt assembly. It's a 1965730 in group 2.049 but I don't know if it's available from GM either.

If you have a no start without even a click, that would sound more like a solenoid engagement problem but if what you have is slow crank when hot, that's typically armature/field problems or incorrect application but it is possible there are other things wrong somewhere. If you have an initial ignition timing problem, that will show when hot but may not when the engine is cold but that would sound quite different than w weak starter.

[Michael H.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

Craig,

I seem to remember the last few digits of the part number being stamped somewhere on the armature but I'm not sure on that. I have an NOS one but it's not here in FL. I think it's a 1940624 in group 2.043.

The field coil was unique to that starter and armature, and also 425 HP. It was a four coil unit instead of a typical three coil/shunt assembly. It's a 1965730 in group 2.049 but I don't know if it's available from GM either.

If you have a no start without even a click, that would sound more like a solenoid engagement problem but if what you have is slow crank when hot, that's typically armature/field problems or incorrect application but it is possible there are other things wrong somewhere. If you have an initial ignition timing problem, that will show when hot but may not when the engine is cold but that would sound quite different than w weak starter.

[Clem Z.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

all the hi torque starters i have used have 4 field coils and the starter case is longer that a std one. the std ones have the field coil terminal at the end of the case and the high torque one has about 1" more case length past the field coil terminal. make sure you have a good copper B+ wire and make sure the ground wire from the battery are tight and clean. these starters pull over 400 amps when spinning over a hot engine

[Clem Z.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

all the hi torque starters i have used have 4 field coils and the starter case is longer that a std one. the std ones have the field coil terminal at the end of the case and the high torque one has about 1" more case length past the field coil terminal. make sure you have a good copper B+ wire and make sure the ground wire from the battery are tight and clean. these starters pull over 400 amps when spinning over a hot engine

[Joe L.]

Addendum

Tom, et al-----

As I mentioned previously, I struggled with this problem for YEARS and tried everything I could imagine to fix it for good without success. Over the years, this included a rebuilt original starter, a rebuilt non-original starter, a brand new GM starter (high torque type), a rebuilt solenoid, 2 or 3 brand new solenoids including a new high-heat solenoid, a retrofit solenoid spring (which GM said would cure this problem), a new ignition switch, a new stock solenoid heat shield, a new "super-duper" aftermarket heat shield, a complete check of the wiring, check of the firewall wiring connector, new batteries, battery connection cleaning/tightening, and more things that I probably can't remember now.

Finally, I consulted a fellow that's been in the automotive electrical business for years. This fellow----one Ron Oliphant, proprietor of Speedometer Electric Service in Hayward, CA----is one of the few people in the business that I've found to be 100% competent. A real gem if there ever was one; I bow to him! After I described my problem to him, he told me that the only way to cure it permanently was to install a slave solenoid. He went on to say that the problem is caused by heat-induced resistance in the purple wire to the starter solenoid "S" terminal.

Although I have great confidence in Ron, I must say that I was a little skeptical about this. But, because of my confidence in him, I went ahead and tried it. The chances are that if ANYONE else had told me what Ron did, I probably would have (politely) dismissed it out-of-hand.

I installed the solenoid EXACTLY as Ron had described it to me, using heavy gauge wire (at that time and as far as I know, there were no slave solenoid retrofit KITS yet on the market). The problem went away PERMANENTLY. I've NEVER experienced it again in over 15+ years of use.

Keep one thing in mind here: especially considering all of the things that I tried prior to Ron's suggestion, if Ron's "diagnosis" of what was causing the problem had been incorrect, then the installation of the slave solenoid would have done absolutely nothing to cure it and, certainly, the problem would have cropped up again during the subsequent 15+ years. The ONLY change that the slave solenoid makes is that, installed correctly, it absolutely ensures the delivery of full current to the solenoid "S" terminal under all conditions. It accomplishes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else. So, if the actual problem were NOT connected to heat-induced resistance in the purple wire, then the slave solenoid could do absolutely nothing to correct it and the problem would have persisted. But, it didn't.

As to why some cars suffer from this problem and others don't, I have no idea.

[Joe L.]

Addendum

Tom, et al-----

As I mentioned previously, I struggled with this problem for YEARS and tried everything I could imagine to fix it for good without success. Over the years, this included a rebuilt original starter, a rebuilt non-original starter, a brand new GM starter (high torque type), a rebuilt solenoid, 2 or 3 brand new solenoids including a new high-heat solenoid, a retrofit solenoid spring (which GM said would cure this problem), a new ignition switch, a new stock solenoid heat shield, a new "super-duper" aftermarket heat shield, a complete check of the wiring, check of the firewall wiring connector, new batteries, battery connection cleaning/tightening, and more things that I probably can't remember now.

Finally, I consulted a fellow that's been in the automotive electrical business for years. This fellow----one Ron Oliphant, proprietor of Speedometer Electric Service in Hayward, CA----is one of the few people in the business that I've found to be 100% competent. A real gem if there ever was one; I bow to him! After I described my problem to him, he told me that the only way to cure it permanently was to install a slave solenoid. He went on to say that the problem is caused by heat-induced resistance in the purple wire to the starter solenoid "S" terminal.

Although I have great confidence in Ron, I must say that I was a little skeptical about this. But, because of my confidence in him, I went ahead and tried it. The chances are that if ANYONE else had told me what Ron did, I probably would have (politely) dismissed it out-of-hand.

I installed the solenoid EXACTLY as Ron had described it to me, using heavy gauge wire (at that time and as far as I know, there were no slave solenoid retrofit KITS yet on the market). The problem went away PERMANENTLY. I've NEVER experienced it again in over 15+ years of use.

Keep one thing in mind here: especially considering all of the things that I tried prior to Ron's suggestion, if Ron's "diagnosis" of what was causing the problem had been incorrect, then the installation of the slave solenoid would have done absolutely nothing to cure it and, certainly, the problem would have cropped up again during the subsequent 15+ years. The ONLY change that the slave solenoid makes is that, installed correctly, it absolutely ensures the delivery of full current to the solenoid "S" terminal under all conditions. It accomplishes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING else. So, if the actual problem were NOT connected to heat-induced resistance in the purple wire, then the slave solenoid could do absolutely nothing to correct it and the problem would have persisted. But, it didn't.

As to why some cars suffer from this problem and others don't, I have no idea.

[Clem Z.]

GM did the remote solenoid retrofit to all

its motorhome chassis and we always did it on race cars,used a F--D starter solenoid, BUT if you are NCRS concerned you need to try the other tricks. the heat from the exhaust causes the bakeolite on the stock solenoid to shrink and the terminal bolts that go thru get loose and lose contact. also the high current copper contacts inside get burnt and oxidized and form a high resistance.

[Clem Z.]

GM did the remote solenoid retrofit to all

its motorhome chassis and we always did it on race cars,used a F--D starter solenoid, BUT if you are NCRS concerned you need to try the other tricks. the heat from the exhaust causes the bakeolite on the stock solenoid to shrink and the terminal bolts that go thru get loose and lose contact. also the high current copper contacts inside get burnt and oxidized and form a high resistance.

[Joe L.]

Re: GM did the remote solenoid retrofit to all

clem-----

Yes, GM did call for the remote solenoid addition on motorhome chassis. That represents somewhat of an accession on their part that there actually IS a problem. In fact, when I discussed this with Ron years ago, the motorhome problem had already been recognized. He said that GM said it was only a problem on motorhomes, though. But, he told me that it was actually a problem on a lot of other cars, too.

The problems on the solenoid that you describe are real, too. However, in my case, I went through several on-starter solenoids in my quest for a solution. Also, if the solenoid problems that you described had been what was causing my problems, then the slave solenoid would not have corrected it. There's no way that the slave solenoid could "overcome" functional problems in the on-starter solenoid.

[Joe L.]

Re: GM did the remote solenoid retrofit to all

clem-----

Yes, GM did call for the remote solenoid addition on motorhome chassis. That represents somewhat of an accession on their part that there actually IS a problem. In fact, when I discussed this with Ron years ago, the motorhome problem had already been recognized. He said that GM said it was only a problem on motorhomes, though. But, he told me that it was actually a problem on a lot of other cars, too.

The problems on the solenoid that you describe are real, too. However, in my case, I went through several on-starter solenoids in my quest for a solution. Also, if the solenoid problems that you described had been what was causing my problems, then the slave solenoid would not have corrected it. There's no way that the slave solenoid could "overcome" functional problems in the on-starter solenoid.

[Craig S.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

Thx Mike and Clem - I know I need to check out the truck starter, thx for the tips on the field and armature, I will rebuild the original 66 425 starter and see what parts are inside. To answer the questions on the truck problem, it is the historic heat soak symptom, it does engage, and spin the engine to compression but won't pull it through the compression stroke when hot, and only sometimes. Actually, even cold, it does't pull as fast as I would like. The headers are wrapped very close to the starter housing, I am sure they have fried the field coil, it worked well when I rebuilt the engine and installed the headers back in 96. The battery cables were new then, and still look good at the battery, a fairly new Optmia 950 or so CCA battery. I may have a heat issue at the cable near the starter, or a lossy connection on the solenoid. I am gussing I may just have fried the insulation in the field windings over the years of the headers frying the case though......Craig

[Craig S.]

Re: 1966/427 hot starter problem

Thx Mike and Clem - I know I need to check out the truck starter, thx for the tips on the field and armature, I will rebuild the original 66 425 starter and see what parts are inside. To answer the questions on the truck problem, it is the historic heat soak symptom, it does engage, and spin the engine to compression but won't pull it through the compression stroke when hot, and only sometimes. Actually, even cold, it does't pull as fast as I would like. The headers are wrapped very close to the starter housing, I am sure they have fried the field coil, it worked well when I rebuilt the engine and installed the headers back in 96. The battery cables were new then, and still look good at the battery, a fairly new Optmia 950 or so CCA battery. I may have a heat issue at the cable near the starter, or a lossy connection on the solenoid. I am gussing I may just have fried the insulation in the field windings over the years of the headers frying the case though......Craig

[Craig S.]

Re: GM did the remote solenoid retrofit to all

Joe and Clem = sounds like my truck problem above may be cured by this fix, guess it is worth a try......Craig