C2:67 Grille, Randy6423

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Wayne,

Not sure what stuff you are referring to in the picture. The little curved piece in the upper left corner is part of the fender adjacent to the headlight bucket. The stuff above the grille is debris on the pavement outside the car, you can see the back edge of the bumper at the top of the picture.

Back to the rivets, if you take a look at the 67 Judging Guide, the rivets are definitely described. My grille mounting is exactly as described in that Judging Guide.

Jerry Fuccillo
#42179

[Randy R.]

Re: C2:67 Grille, Randy6423

Jerry,

Thank you for taking the time to measure your grille. With this information, I can proceed with the repairs.

Randy

[Wayne W.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

This area right here.

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Wayne,

I think it is just a rough joint between the inner fender and parking lamp panel. If I reach down and feel it, I can actually feel the edge of the panel which goes around the bottom of the grille as it attaches to the fender panel. The original primer is over the rough area, so I assume it came from the factory that way.

On the right side, the joint is a little cleaner with a better paint margin, but you can still feel the edge of the inner panel against the fender panel. I've found a lot of other places on the car where the interior bonding joints are a little rough. Maybe this is an AO Smith thing.

Here's what that area looks like from the outside:


If we ever meet at an event, I'd be happy to have you go through my car.

Jerry Fuccillo
#42179

[Stephen L.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Jerry, Here is a photo of my grille rivets. These are the "peened"type as opposed to the "pop rivet" type that you have. Possibly both were supplied.

TOP SIDE:
BOTTOM SIDE:

My 67 is a "damage free" St Louis body... never been hit. This is the area that Wayne was questioning....it is one piece... no seam in that area

This is a photo of your grille area.....

[Wayne W.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

The problem that I have with these pop rivets is that they are larger than the original holes. For that to have been done on the line, it would have required drilling larger holes in the grille. I have seen many of the original rivets that have come loose and it is common to see them pop riveted, but with smaller rivets. No disrespect, that looks like a great car, but I am still not convinced that the rivets are original. I know you have a pretty good continuous history on this car, but I point out that area near the grille where there is a possibility of repairs of some sort. This could explain the rivets.

[Stephen L.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Wayne, I believe you want this post to go to Jerry not me. Have a good day.
Steve

[Joe R.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Hi Jerry:

This thread prompted me to go look at my April 67 A.O. Smith body grille, which I believe is original to the car. Mine looks like the photo posted by Steve Levigne, with the smooth rivet and the smooth edge on the adjacent fiberglass.

Is your car the same on both sides (driver side and passenger side) of the grille?

I have heard of cases where cars were damaged at the factory and repaired there before being shipped, so I wonder whether something like that happened to your car. Another possibility is that there was some sort of production problem that affected multiple cars. Hopefully some other owners of 67 A.O. Smith cars will see this thread and report on what this area looks like on their cars.

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Joe,

The pop rivets on mine are the same on both sides and both top and bottom. The email I received from John Hinckley indicates that maybe the riveting machine broke down or they ran out of rivets on my assembly date of June 29, 1967, so they used pop rivets instead to keep the production line going.

In as much as others have indicated they have pop rivets instead of round headed rivets, I believe this could have happened. Believe me, the grille has never been replaced.

I have to confess that someone backed into the driver side fender while I was parked in 1971/72. It resulted in a repair of a 2"X4" hole in the outside of the driver side fender along the curve to the front. What Wayne Womble observed was probably part of the repair. The crack at the fiberglass seam between the fender and the lower valance panel was filled in with epoxy filler. There is a definite seam there. The grille was untouched and I never paid for a replacement grille.

In summary, I think that some 67 grilles were put on with pop rivets, when the regular rivets ran out, or the rivet machine was down, as John indicates. If this was a factory repair, I don't know, but this is the way I believe it came to the dealer from the factory in the week of July, 15 1967. My POP indicates delivery to my room-mate original owner on 7/18/67.

Regards,

Jerry Fuccillo
#42179

[Wayne W.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

That is a possible scenario, and I can certainly accept it, but it could also be said for most any other part on the car. OH, they just ran out of those TR bolts and ran down to the corner hardware store for some Dormans. If presented for judging, would it be expected that a judge should accept it without some further evidence. I would like to see some more well pedigreed examples.

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Wayne,

You, or any judge, can give me points off on the rivets anytime you want, I know that they are original to the car and don't have to prove it. I got an opinion from someone who was there. I'd rather preserve the originality than go by the book.

In fact, I have a lot of different period bolt head markings original to the car, and other anomolies not in the book. You can sometimes learn from anomolies. I think a lot of odd things happened late in production.

I also think what Roy and Noland says about the big block hood on the small blocks in late February-early March 67 is true.

Regards,

Jerry Fuccillo
#42179

[Joe R.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Hi Jerry:

Okay, so the apparent fiberglass damage is probably traceable to the repair you describe. That leaves just the mystery of the rivets.

When in the assembly process were the rivets installed? At AO Smith or at the factory that made the grilles? If it was at AO Smith maybe we can find some other June cars to look at. I know a guy who has a June AO Smith car, and I will ask him to take a look.

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Joe,

I have it from John Hinckley that the grilles were installed in St Louis, so the rivets is probably not an AO Smith thing. Maybe John will chime in on this.

If you look way up in this thread (probably archived by now) someone else reported they had the pop rivets like mine.

I guess there were breakdowns or shortages, and they did what was necessary to keep the line moving.

John, Help!

Jerry Fuccillo
#42179

[Barbara S.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Hi Jerry and Joe. My car is still in storage but I'll go by this afternoon and look at mine. You may remember that my car was a survivor 67 coupe built in June, 67. It was a very original car before I did my body off resto on it. I'll check my grille rivets and see what they are.

Tony

[Wayne W.]

Re: 67 Grille Bracket Rivets

Jerry, I dont mean to make you mad by any of my comments, so please dont take anything that I say the wrong way. Again, I say, you have a great car and it is plausible that this could have happened. Just like it is plausible that other odd things were done on the line, but, without enough known original examples to surface, it will always be suspect. The problem with this is , that a pop rivet, in that location, is the most common replacement component used except for a small bolt and nut. Now none of us would consider a bolt and nut as being correct, but it could have been just as easily used on the line. If you do a survey of current car cars in that serial number range, my guess is, that you will find more pop rivets and bolts than original rivets. Hopefully there will be more with good pedigrees to show up. As for the BB hood deal, you know where I stand on that, but interestingly, you are quick to agree with John on this one, when he has stated that he doesnt believe the hood thing happened that way. Also, interestingly, Roys old car didnt even fall in the stated time frame that it was supposed to, even though it was the only footnote in the book. There are so many holes in that one. Thank you for taking the time to post your pictures to show the man how to mount his grille.