Judging Guides and Color Pictures

[Bill L.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Why not print a black and white manual and then have another printing of just the color photos that references the correct pages in the JG? It would be bought to go along with the black and white JG if desired. That way the penny pinchers can save a couple pennies and the rest of us can have color pictures at a nominal cost.

I for one am more than willing to pay for the color pictures. Maybe even put them on a CD that goes along with the JG.

Bottom line for me is it should be color.

Bill

[Dan A.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Penny pinchers, nice. Thank you.

[Keith W.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I believe the better answer is to have a area on the NCRS web site broken down by JG that members can log in and view color pics with the page number in the JG. This would be little or no cost for the NCRS and easily manage when mistakes are found.

Ken

Agree Ken if cost is such an issue put it in an area on the NCRS website, members only section to allow access and to be controlled, we also talk about cost of print , and I understand the argument of " I like to have a magazine to hand on file etc" but really within 2 years everything will be down loaded surely - there's your major cost saving - just like Hemmings monthly magazines, just a thought - Keith

[David E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Mark and Harry and others.
The color pictures have been discussed in the past and there are a multitude of reasons that it has not been done.
1- The cost is a problem of course.
2- The IT files for putting color in would be massive and the IT group may not be able to handle it. They have a ton of stuff on their plate.
3- The color in the pictures would not necessarily reflect the correct finish of the item.
A perfect example is the early color chips the dealers had- we had judges trying to compare the paint on the car to the chip. Since the color was printed it may or may not be close to the actual paint. Caused a lot of problems.
I believe the color picture ideal has been turned down in the past.
Dave Ewan #177

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

David,

Yes, it has been discussed more than once. To follow up on your comments:

1. Cost difference in 2016 is minimal.
2. Current JG files for the 70-72 manual revision are at 3.5 to 7 GB each with all color photos included, with each section on a pdf file. It has all been handled, and when done the files will be print-ready. There is nothing the IT has to do at all. They are not a part of the JG revision process.
3. True to an extent, but black-and-white do a far poorer job. If the manual can be printed, not copied, and properly reviewed before the project is signed off, the difference will be more like Real vs. Memorex.

Patrick

[Leif A.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Mark and Harry and others.
The color pictures have been discussed in the past and there are a multitude of reasons that it has not been done.
1- The cost is a problem of course.
2- The IT files for putting color in would be massive and the IT group may not be able to handle it. They have a ton of stuff on their plate.
3- The color in the pictures would not necessarily reflect the correct finish of the item.
A perfect example is the early color chips the dealers had- we had judges trying to compare the paint on the car to the chip. Since the color was printed it may or may not be close to the actual paint. Caused a lot of problems.
I believe the color picture ideal has been turned down in the past.
Dave Ewan #177

Dave,
With no disrespect intended, so was woman's suffrage, segregation, the right to drink...amongst dozens of others...doesn't mean we all can't change. And, in this particular regard, IMHO, it needs to at least be subjectively looked at. I believe we still live in a democracy...put it to a vote of the members. Let those who pay decide. Tis the voting season, after all.

[David E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Patrick
I am sure that you are much more computer literate than I am. However I did check with the IT department on this and they do have a lot to do with it. GC does a lot of work on them . He put the 56-57 manual together and just finished the 65 for David.
The cost has been looked at in the past and the numbers were larger than black and white.
I do agree that the colored pictures would be great! Redoing the manuals is a huge job.
Dave Ewan # 177

[Kevin G.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Why not print a black and white manual and then have another printing of just the color photos that references the correct pages in the JG? It would be bought to go along with the black and white JG if desired. That way the penny pinchers can save a couple pennies and the rest of us can have color pictures at a nominal cost.

I for one am more than willing to pay for the color pictures. Maybe even put them on a CD that goes along with the JG.

Bottom line for me is it should be color.

Bill

Bill, You've got it!

In my opinion, as much as it weighs within this club.....THIS is the best suggestion yet to be posted. Providing duel publications solves the issues for all. Not only would the membership benefit by having the newly revised Judging Manual, at the same or close price it is now. We would also have another publication with the accumulation of every photograph possibly available. The new publication opens up yet another source of income for the NCRS. Remembering words from our previous Judging Chairman, "the NRCS is a publication company".

Both publications could be purchased or just one, the choice would then be up the member. Going with this method, I'd bet even more quality photos could reach the membership.

I do agree, without change no company, organization, club, or group has much of a future. This method opens up a lot of doors for every generation of our beloved Corvette Judging Manuals.

My .02

[Dave S.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Lief
One peon's opinion here --->
I think it is being looked at subjectively now, and most people (on the DB anyway) think it's a good idea. It needs to be looked at objectively and there it may not fare so well. And, the members (the very few who are interested and vote anyway) elect representatives. The representatives should be able to make the concerns of those members who care known to the greater BoD. And, a vote can be taken there. Wouldn't that get the issue addressed sufficiently for the members who care? Of course, to give the topic the consideration it deserves would require someone to take on the project of actually determining objectively what the costs really would be.

I think if a vote were taken the large majority of the membership would prefer a colored Judging Guide. I have never heard that real pricing has ever been obtained on printing (not copying) of our Judging Guides. It has been used as an excuse but I believe without any accurate price comparisons.
Our 70-72 Judging Guide re-write team and related car owners deserve to have our Manual printed in color.
I hope our National Judging Chairman and Board of Directors see their way to allow this. It surely will become the standard and a much needed one at that.,

[David E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Guys
I believe that the board has looked in the past and at the costs when they made their decision . I also think that the subject will be on the agenda at the board meeting in March.
Dave Ewan # 177

[Mark S.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Dave:
I mean no offense here; however, your statement is starting to sound like Hillary in the debates. Can't we make sure that colored Judging Guides go on the board agenda in March. I also do not want to beat a dead horse here; but from the responses, most of the membership would like to see colored Judging Guides. A picture is worth a thousand words; and colored pictures are even more definitive! As having a master in fine arts, I know that color does help define the subject matter much better. Media of all types have made the transition from black and white to color. NCRS needs to keep up with the times and make the change to color. I wish the best to all my fellow NCRS members in 2016!
Sincerely, Mark

[Dick W.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Mark and Harry and others.
The color pictures have been discussed in the past and there are a multitude of reasons that it has not been done.
1- The cost is a problem of course.
2- The IT files for putting color in would be massive and the IT group may not be able to handle it. They have a ton of stuff on their plate.
3- The color in the pictures would not necessarily reflect the correct finish of the item.
A perfect example is the early color chips the dealers had- we had judges trying to compare the paint on the car to the chip. Since the color was printed it may or may not be close to the actual paint. Caused a lot of problems.
I believe the color picture ideal has been turned down in the past.
Dave Ewan #177

Dave, having been on several manual revision teams and fighting for color. Most of the reasons for not printing them in color do not hold water. And I am putting it politely.

The issue of the color not reflecting the individual item correctly is hog wash. If you have ever taken the interior out of a Corvette and placed it under bright lights, nothing matches. There are almost as many varying shades as there are parts.

Cost, when we did the last '68-'69 manual we ran some cost comparisons with a couple of printers, about $5-$7 difference. With NCRS marking the manual cost up over 100% there is plenty of room for color. Add $5.00 to the manual. And go to a commercial digital printer, not Kinkos or Office Depot.

IT department involved? The last manual we did was submitted camera ready in PDF. All had to be done was design the covers. I understand that the new '70-'72 manual will be submitted the same way. The last manual we submitted for anyone else to revise was a flaming disaster. It had to be reprinted immediately after it was released. Revising manuals using Word is archaic, a program such as Indesign should be used.

Color chips? NCRS has been selling chips for several years that did not correctly reflect the color. Ink and paint come out two different colors. I had a set of the factory paint standards and the DuPont and PPG color chips, they were correct. With that said, depending on the skill of the painter, how long the mixing machine had been turned on, the temperature, and humidity there were variations at St. Louis and to a lesser degree at Bowling Green until the change over from lacquer to the more modern materials.

It is time that NCRS get rid the ostrich syndrome and at least come into the 21st century, hopefully up to 2016. It ain't rocket science folks, we have at least one rocket scientist on this board that would even tell you that.

[Mark D.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I had heard the rumors but, now I know...he lives.

[Dick W.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Just got tired of hearing the same old BS just different days

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Thanks for weighing in on this Dick, much appreciated.