Why the blurred columns???

[Dennis O.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

I still don't get it. People are currently "reproducing" documents (tank stickers, etc.) all of the time. One only has to take a quick look through this forum to see that, as well as the forms, etc. available on eBay etc. There are two kinds of reproduced documents out there; those that correctly represent the vehicle as produced, and those that don't. If this information were available and pertinent, wouldn't it it allow us to tell the fly **** from the pepper?

[Mike M.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Keith
My question in conjunction with your question would be in those blurred columns is what code or codes would be the same amount of numbers or letters for each car? The columns all look like they all have the same amount of characters, for instance I have one 67 that has 16 options, you may have one with 10,another person with 8 so on and so forth!!! What could be the same for all????? Whats to hide!!!

Mike

[Larry M.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Keith
My question in conjunction with your question would be in those blurred columns is what code or codes would be the same amount of numbers or letters for each car? The columns all look like they all have the same amount of characters, for instance I have one 67 that has 16 options, you may have one with 10,another person with 8 so on and so forth!!! What could be the same for all????? Whats to hide!!!

Mike

My (un)educated guess would be IDENT NUMBER, ORDER NUMBER, and DATE ORDER RECEIVED. These all appear on the tank sticker and some are on the window sticker..........but trying to guess them for making a "reproduction sticker" is very difficult. They are not quite random, but pretty close to it.

Agree with Terry M, this information is better in a secure location that can be used to validate documents for members for a nominal fee.

Larry

[Larry E.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Boy the one column I would like to have is the "Date Order Received" if in
fact it is one of the blurred columns. Would not this tell us why certain cars
had to wait for delivery extra long because certain options where not
available at the time of order? Am I missing something here?
Larry

[Gene M.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

And you are not at all concerned that with the blurred information those with nefarious intent could more easily generate counterfeit Corvettes?

You and I may be hobbyists, but not all of us are, and a good number of people make their living from Corvette connected businesses, and some of those people are not as honest as we are -- so "After all this is a hobby not a business." only works for some of us. Not all of those who make money (even if not a living) from Corvette related activities have nefarious intent -- but enough who post on this site seem concerned about authenticity that it makes one wonder.

I am happy the club I belong to is concerned enough about fraudulent activity that they have taken steps to protect the integrity of the data. I am also disappointed that someone who has been in this club as long as you just "don't get it."

I agree with your concerns. But I guess I can't be as concerned about the crooks and fraud as to hinder sharing information with our members. The "bad guys" are going to their evil deeds no matter what. Just like the old saying the laws are only for the people that obey them.

Believe me "I get it" but you can't stop any fraud that has so much access to fake stuff out there. If you really want to subdue the fraudulent activity publish all the offenses found on the show field. Now grant it the documents will be tuff since we don't judge them. But the tags, stampings, and some options added can truly be disclosed to the membership.

Terry, you and I are on the same hobbiest page. But like many have pointed out the counterfeit Corvettes have gotten better (stampings and what ever) that a "micro lab" would be needed to disclose them.

Example: I share restoration information except in such cases as when side pipes have been added to a non side pipe car. Many owners have asked how do they correct the side pipes? My answer is put the under car system back. I will not contribute to their fakery. There are other cases where owners want to add power steering, brakes, or what ever wasn't on the car originally. My answer "NO" that takes it into the street rod modified category. Certainly not an act of restoration.

[John H.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Not taking sides, but the blurred columns really affect cars that are presented with paper work. Then NCRS is becoming a verification service for cars and documents which will be used as a sales tool just as "Flight" scores are. That could become a slippery slope. Flight scores are one thing, but essentially validating unseen paperwork and cars as presented is another. It can work both ways in some situations as we have seen anomalies and errors with original paperwork and components. Just because the paperwork lines up, does not mean that (in some cases) it belongs to that particular car." Air cars " are the case in point. If you have a bundle of documents, you can now have NCRS provide legitimacy to a conglomeration of parts. Just my thoughts for now.

[John H.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

I may be kinda stupid, but please explain to me how this would work. How can providing MORE information make it "tougher to tell real from fake"? Doesn't make sense to me.

Simple. The numbers in the blurred columns are ONLY on that car's original paperwork, and are unique only to that car. If someone is "creating" bogus paperwork to pass off as describing a car's original as-built configuration, and they don't have the car's original paperwork, they have no clue what those numbers in the blurred columns should be, so they pluck them out of the air and use them in the blanks where they belong, and the average person would never know that.

However, if that bogus paperwork is submitted for the NCRS Document Validation Service, the "blurred column" records will confirm that the submitted paperwork matches the car, or it doesn't. If the "blurred column" numbers were made public, anyone could create bogus paperwork that could be confirmed as matching GM records.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Simple. The numbers in the blurred columns are ONLY on that car's original paperwork, and are unique only to that car. If someone is "creating" bogus paperwork to pass off as describing a car's original as-built configuration, and they don't have the car's original paperwork, they have no clue what those numbers in the blurred columns should be, so they pluck them out of the air and use them in the blanks where they belong, and the average person would never know that.

However, if that bogus paperwork is submitted for the NCRS Document Validation Service, the "blurred column" records will confirm that the submitted paperwork matches the car, or it doesn't. If the "blurred column" numbers were made public, anyone could create bogus paperwork that could be confirmed as matching GM records.

Makes perfectly good sense to me. I salute the officers of the NCRS for their foresight.....

[G A.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

So, IF the data in the blurred columns can in some way affirm a 'real' car from a 'bogus' car AND this data remains locked away safe and sound, how can do it anyone any good?
- Dan

[Dennis O.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

So, IF the data in the blurred columns can in some way affirm a 'real' car from a 'bogus' car AND this data remains locked away safe and sound, how can do it anyone any good?
- Dan

This pretty much sums up what I was thinking as well. There should be safeguards in place so this information cannot be misused. (No offense to anyone, but "even the appearance of impropriety.......".) I haven't received my Driveline yet, so I'll reserve further judgment until I see the entire article.

I'm glad I've had my cars over 25 years and they're both small blocks.

[Dick W.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Terry,
I in no way infer any officers profit from the charges. Sorry you took it that way. I intend no attack on any body. I just want to see open and free exchange of history that is available. NCRS officers do have control over the data GM shared with NCRS and have attached a cost/price to it in order for members to obtain it. Not right.

I just feel that NCRS should freely share with all it's members any information on our Corvettes free of charge and all of it. I see no reason to hide data GM provided. After all GM has generated the data not NCRS.

I have always been a proponent of sharing any information pertaining to Corvettes free of charge. Be it judging knowledge, fabrication techniques or ways to perform restoration ......FREE.

After all this is a hobby not a business.

Share all the info and in 90 days it would not be worth the paper it is written on. By the time that the "paper manufacturers" got a copy, all the counterfeit docs would be "good".

There is good reason not to share, plus the General still has control of this info, it is NOT owned by NCRS. The General dictates the what, how, and costs of this data.

[Steve B.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

Share all the info and in 90 days it would not be worth the paper it is written on. By the time that the "paper manufacturers" got a copy, all the counterfeit docs would be "good".

There is good reason not to share, plus the General still has control of this info, it is NOT owned by NCRS. The General dictates the what, how, and costs of this data.

Agree 100% except it would probably take 90 minutes and not 90 days.

[Roger P.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

I certainly understand the points being made on both sides of the discussion. However, in my opinion, the information should be made available to the registered owner of the car. Many of us don't have tank stickers, POP's, order forms, etc. Many of us have spent weeks, months, or years researching previous owners in hope of finding information about our beloved cars. Most members of the NCRS are in the hobby for the love of Corvettes, not to create bogus cars to sell for profit. We celebrate the birthday of our cars, and pamper and spend time & money on them like they're a member of the family. Why would the organization that we belong to withhold information from us about our cars unless we can "prove" that we already know the information? If I already have documentation, then I don't really need to validate it. If someone purchased a car with bogus documentation, then at least they would learn something about their car; good or bad. Basically, those without legitimate paperwork are being punished at the expense of "bad guys" who want to build fake cars. This is like being back in elementary school and getting punished because one bad kid has to ruin the fun for everyone. That's lame. There are threads about how unfair it is that information exists about our cars that is being withheld by the DMV's and National Insurance KGB. How un-American, right? I just don't see how this is any different. Sorry, but when it's all said and done, we are talking about a car. I'm going to enjoy mine in the driveway and behind the wheel with or without the additional "blurred" columns of information. NCRS, let me know if you want to share it with me one day .

Roger (50141)

[Tom H.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

So, IF the data in the blurred columns can in some way affirm a 'real' car from a 'bogus' car AND this data remains locked away safe and sound, how can do it anyone any good?
- Dan

I think the info in the blurred columns will never affirm a real car, but it will HELP confirm real documents.

I think an example would go like this. Anyone feel free to correct me if my thinking is wrong.

I believe there are IDENT numbers and Invoice numbers in the info the NCRS has secured. As John H. said, these numbers are unique to the original paperwork of the car. I don't believe they reveal any equipment or real information about the car. However, they do appear on original documents. Say you have a "Real" car. You also have some documentation for the car. You can submit these documents to the NCRS to see if the documents you have contain any of the said numbers. If the numbers on your paperwork don't jive, you can feel certain that your paperwork may not be real, even though your car could very well be or not be real. Further investigation would have to take place at that point. Make any sense ??

[Dick W.]

Re: Why the blurred columns???

I think the info in the blurred columns will never affirm a real car, but it will HELP confirm real documents.

I think an example would go like this. Anyone feel free to correct me if my thinking is wrong.

I believe there are IDENT numbers and Invoice numbers in the info the NCRS has secured. As John H. said, these numbers are unique to the original paperwork of the car. I don't believe they reveal any equipment or real information about the car. However, they do appear on original documents. Say you have a "Real" car. You also have some documentation for the car. You can submit these documents to the NCRS to see if the documents you have contain any of the said numbers. If the numbers on your paperwork don't jive, you can feel certain that your paperwork may not be real, even though your car could very well be or not be real. Further investigation would have to take place at that point. Make any sense ??

The blurred numbers do not reveal anything about the options, colors, etc. At the time they were issued, it was just a means of tracking the order, not the info on the order