Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

[Ronald L.]

An informational post.



Kernel Knowledge: One man on a mission to show how ethanol is wrecking your engine

http://www.historicvehicle.org/Latest-News/Current-news/2011/08/24/Kernel-Knowledge-One-man-on-a-mission?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=Client&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20News-September

[Jim D.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

No offense but that article is B.S. In the Pacific Northwest, we've had ethanol in our gas since the early 70's. I've been working on cars long before that and have never seen any problem having it in our fuel. Many, including this guy, tend to blame the normal deterioration of products on ethanol instead of blaming it on age which is the real culprit.

[Philip P.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Where did you get the data that fuel in the Pacific Northwest has had ethanol since 70, I have lived here all my life and sure do not rememeber fuel with ethanol in it that early. I remember that it was originally in counties that had air problems ie Spokane, King that required it in the winter months.
We just did a 800 mile trip (Washington State) and I used only ethanol free gas what a difference it made in the car (1960/230)
Phil

[John D.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

I enjoyed reading the report and agreed with most of it. I realize not all of you agree that ethanol is hurting our antique Corvettes. That's good as it would be boring if we all agreed.
Let me tell you that since the advent of corn fuel the phone calls I get have gone thru the roof to the point where I have restricted the hours I answer the phone. I probably get a call or two a day ( maybe more) on ethanol issues.
But I don't complain as it's how I make a living.
Seems the most problems are coming from the collectors who have boo coo cars lined up and are using wonderful ethanol. They are really suffering.
What are they suffering from you ask?
Plugged up fuel systems, leaking o'rings, rubber parts going to part, failing engine fuel pumps and fuel systems.
As far as the future goes there should be no problem keeping the 57 to 65 fuel injections running even if the ethanol percentage is increased.
At this past Corvette Carlisle carb owners were complaining of problems with the accelerator pumps. Guys are out looking for the old style accel pumps made out of leather instead of rubber.
Personally I was not exposed to ethanol until the late 80's or early 90's. Saw it advertised at Speed Way stations in IL when we were at the Bloomington Gold show. So i bought a gallon and brought it home and tested all the key rubber parts in an FI unit and they all failed miserably. But I figured the corn fuel was a local problem (IL) and didn't worry about it until it hit my neighborhood. I didn't know it was on the market in the 70's though. JD

[Jim D.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Where did you get the data that fuel in the Pacific Northwest has had ethanol since 70, I have lived here all my life and sure do not rememeber fuel with ethanol in it that early. I remember that it was originally in counties that had air problems ie Spokane, King that required it in the winter months.
We just did a 800 mile trip (Washington State) and I used only ethanol free gas what a difference it made in the car (1960/230)
Phil

I have lived in the I-5 corridor my whole life and worked in a service station in the early 70's when they started adding it to our fuel. The data was received from the suppliers of our fuel. That is when they required us, and everyone else, to put the stickers on the pumps. I also have a friend who just retired as an engineer from a local refinery after 40+ years in the industry. He's my source of actual info., not internet propaganda.

I find the topic as interesting as John above however I have completely different results. I've probably rebuilt over 100 carbs. over the years and have never seen a rubber accelerator pump fail from ethanol. Just for laughs, I put a used one in a jar of fuel that had 10% ethanol and sealed it. After over a year with no degradation, I threw it out. Test complete.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

I have lived in the I-5 corridor my whole life and worked in a service station in the early 70's when they started adding it to our fuel. The data was received from the suppliers of our fuel. That is when they required us, and everyone else, to put the stickers on the pumps. I also have a friend who just retired as an engineer from a local refinery after 40+ years in the industry. He's my source of actual info., not internet propaganda.

I find the topic as interesting as John above however I have completely different results. I've probably rebuilt over 100 carbs. over the years and have never seen a rubber accelerator pump fail from ethanol. Just for laughs, I put a used one in a jar of fuel that had 10% ethanol and sealed it. After over a year with no degradation, I threw it out. Test complete.

depends on the material of the pump as i have seen holley pump diaphrams hard as a brick and Q jet pump cups swell up so they are stuck in the pump well. these Q jet ones were the black rubber and i have not seen this with the newer ones that are blue in color and holley sells a green color one. i think it is not a problem on a car driven a lot but cars that set without starting the engines seem to have the problem. maybe there is a seperation of the stuff in the gasoline that causes the problems

[Philip P.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

I think John hit it...the cars that sit, we put fuel fliters before and after the fuel pump when ethanol became alsmost a must by all dealers. I think that once all the varnish etc was cleaned out that many problems disappeared on cars that are driven on a somewhat regular basis as ours is.
What is intesting is companies have products to deal with ethanol issues,is this vodoo or what I do not know.
As for ethanol in Northwest gas there seems to be a cottage industry on the coast side of Washington selling non ethanol gas mainly Union 76. It was fairly easy to find (pure-gas.org), and my un-scientific results were actually pretty dramatic in the way our car ran.
Still do not recall ethanol in the seventies, but then I do not remember everything so this should put to rest my wife calling me a " know it all".
Phil

[Stuart F.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Since you all brought up accelerator pump material, what are the redish brown cups made from? Carbs Unlimited sells some AFB kits and Marine pumps with that material, as well as separate pumps of the blue stuff. The AFB/Edelbrock kits they have are really Edelbrock only as the pumps are 13/16" instead of 11/16" needed with a Carter AFB found in our 62 thru 65 Vettes? Has anyone ever tried to hone out a Carter AFB for a 13/16" pump? Looks like it is feasible even if not necessary or practical.

Stu Fox

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Since you all brought up accelerator pump material, what are the redish brown cups made from? Carbs Unlimited sells some AFB kits and Marine pumps with that material, as well as separate pumps of the blue stuff. The AFB/Edelbrock kits they have are really Edelbrock only as the pumps are 13/16" instead of 11/16" needed with a Carter AFB found in our 62 thru 65 Vettes? Has anyone ever tried to hone out a Carter AFB for a 13/16" pump? Looks like it is feasible even if not necessary or practical.

Stu Fox

i would guess the reddish/brown material would be viton as holley needles are viton tipped and they are that color. i remember repairing those old ford variable venturi carbs and one of the changes was that large vacuum diaphragm that controlled the carb was changed from a black to reddish/brown color because the fuel ate up the black ones.

[Larry M.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Different manufacturers have their own color code system for various elastomers and rubber compounds, but here is a link to one of them for your information. PARKER is another very large manufacturer. It seems some colors are "sort of universal", whereas others are not.

Best bet is to call or e-mail the manufacturer or supplier to be certain.

http://www.oringsplus.com/page.asp?pg=47

Larry

PARKER Info: http://www.greatlakesrubber.com/basic_o.html

FWIW: A recent (March 2011) Report from US Government Oak Ridge Labs regarding the effect of ethanol in gasoline on various rubbers and metals. No Cliff's Notes, but the conclusions are around page 40-45. VITON appears our best bet for elastomers. Larry

http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/files/Pub27766.pdf

[Larry M.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Additional information added to my initial post above. FYI.

Larry

[Ronald L.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Lots of nice dialogue, and I was at the general and had the honors of doing the warranty return reports on the plugged fuel lines, gunked up or corroded out carbs, etc. when this whole thing started. Its real.

[John D.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Viton rubber comes in at least two colors. For example the stock buna rubber hi-pressure pump seals for 57 to 65 have black rubber. The viton pump seals have brownish rubber.
Viton o'rings typically come in two colors. Black and also brownish.
How do you know if a rubber o'ring is viton or buna rubber you ask.
Just close your eyes and fell the rubber. Buna rubber is very slick-very smooth. Viton rubber looks like aged rubber-not smooth feeling.
Open your eyes and you will see that Viton o'rings are semi flat in color was as buna rubber ones are glossy.
I am not into carburetors although I used to be. Any info I tell you is heresay.
Those of you that drive your cars a lot-on a regular basis are the smart ones. Smart may not be the correct word. Those of you that are collectors or neglect your cars are in big trouble with ethanol.
In the 70's I recall an additive being used in small of the stations around here. But it wasn't ethanol.
Clem. What was that additive? (Clem lives near me). The name is on the tip of my tongue.
Gasahol was in the 70's around here. Don't know anything about it.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

John, Clem calls it Moonshine

[Bryan H.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Guys
i was advised by a vette mechanic to use hi test because it either has a lower ethanol content or zero. i have not seen any issues so i am assuming there may be truth to it. Bryan Hepper