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Terry -
Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
June 2011 post on non-ethanol.
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...hanol&uid=2674Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
i was told by the dealer here in Northern illinois that hi test doesnt contain Ethanol. is that untrue?
Bryan Hepper
1956 1965Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
I wouldn't rely on a "dealer" to know anything about the product. Find out who is distributor is and talk to them. Better yet, pay them a visit! Ethanol is always blended in at the distriburtion point to the retailer. It's blended into the truck tanks. Then off the truck goes to the retailer.
Most gasolines sold in the US have some ethanol - up to 10 percent by volume, which is the current EPA maximum allowed, and the EPA regulates gasoline blends, so you might be able to find out more from them about the requirements for your specific geography.
Labeling requirements vary by state, so you can't rely on that unless you know your states labeling requirements - whether or not ethanol content must be revealed by a label on the pump.
DukeComment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showpost...nt=18&uid=3311
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showpost...unt=7&uid=2676Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Living in Northern Illinois I can tell you for sure it is untrue unless your dealer is an airport or a marina. Oh, and it is illegal to put gasoline purchased at either of those locations in a road vehicle. I am not telling you it isn't done, but don't get caught at it. That gasoline is usually died some color to reveal it non-road tax state.TerryComment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Another detriment of ethanol additive is increase probability of vapor lock. Here in south Florida a leisurely Sunday drive can be a nightmare with vapor lock, and sluggish performance. I now go to my local marina and fill (3) 5 gallon cans with non eth marine fuel. I add some Kemco, a couple ounces of Mystery Oil, and my L76 engine purrs like a kitten. I am told since Eth absorbs water, it has a lower perc point.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Not sure chemistry works that way...
Ethanol boils at 88C and water 100C. When you distil ethanol, water comes over too. As some may know the risk with moonshine is methanol can come over too and its won't take too much of that to finish you off.
Yes, alcohols absorb water and fast, but IMO the percolation will be due to the low vapor pressure point of the ethanol and not specifically becuase there is water in the system.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Correct- the vapour pressure and ethanol content of the fuel do not necessarily move in lock step.
Earlier this summer, and as referenced in one of Mike Hanson's previous posts on a related subject, three of us conducted a crude experiment attempting to measure evaporation rates of high octane fuel containing 10% ethanol. The participants were located in Florida, Indiana and myself near Montreal. Each of us took a fresh sample of locally purchased E10 gas and filled containers with identical amounts. For commonality, these were plastic caps from spray paint containers. The containers were then placed on asphalt at mid day and the clocks were started. By careful planning (ie. BS luck) all three of us had full sun and very similar ambient temperatures.
The admittedly non-scientific results to see how fast the fuel evaporated were:
Florida 1/2 hour
Indiana 4 hours
Montreal 9+ hours (I gave up waiting)
Mike's car in Florida would not start without excessive cranking after only a 1-2 day rest period whereas mine would sit untouched over the winter but starts within seconds of the first turn of the key. There are obvious configurational differences between the two cars and the test above was simply an attempt to understand evaporation rates in different geographical locations.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Interesting experiment, but you should have kept the containers in the shade. Incident solar radiation may account for most of the difference, and on any given day, the lower the latitude, the greater the incident solar radiation, but gasoline in the carburetor and tank is not exposed to direct solar radiation.
One of the defining properties of gasoline is the "distillation curve". This is a plot of the boiling point of the components on a scale of zero to 100 percent, and two of the commonly defined points are 10 percent and 90 percent.
Distillation curves vary with geography and season, and the ten percent points may vary from as low at 80-90 deg. F in cold winter climates to 120+ degrees in hot summer climates. The 90 percent points are generally 300 deg. F or higher.
The primary source of HC emissions in modern cars is now fuel vaporization, not the tailpipe, so EPA vapor pressure requirements have generally decreased over the years to reduce evaporative emissions, which means a relatively high temperature ten percent point.
Carbureted engines need relatively high vapor pressure (which means a relatively low tempeature 10 percent point) for good cold starting and fuel atomization, but modern fuel injection engines can operate satisfactory on much lower vapor pressure fuel.
The above facts defy the substantial body of anecdotal evidence regarding modern fuel vapor lock on vintage engines, but it does appear than ethanol, which boils at about 170F is the culprit.
Aviation gasoline has low vapor pressure to resist vapor lock at the lower ambient pressure at altitude, so it is usually a cure for the problem.
Race gasoline is also blended to low vapor pressure since cold starting in cold ambient temperatures is not an issue and high heat generation makes race cars - especially those with carubeted engines - subject to vapor lock.
DukeComment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
To add to what Michael Ward said, here are more specific results from our "test lab". (my driveway)
Along with the 10% ethanol fuel, I also tested a like amount of fuel that did NOT contain alcohol. Same conditions, same time. The results are very interesting. (I only filled the small inner section of the spray can lid)
Test #1;
Two equal size/color containers (spray can plastic lids) in direct Fl sun.
One with ethanol, the other with ethanolethanolethanolEthanolEthanolEthanol cup is nearly completely empty, minus a small amount of goonk at the bottom.
Ethanol free cup is slightly less than half full.
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2:21 PM
Ethanol fuel cup has thin residue (goonk) at bottom.
Ethanol free fuel cup is empty.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Good points, and initially the experiment was attempted with the samples sitting in the shade rather then sun. The evaporation rate slowed dramatically as would be expected, but it was thought that the higher temperatures achievable by putting the containers on hot asphalt would be a closer simulation of an engine bay after hot shutdown. The tests were coincidentally performed shortly before the summer solstice, meaning that the incidence angle of the sun was as equalized as much as it could ever be, given the varying longitudes of the participants.
The difference in evaporation rates between the Florida and Montreal samples, ie. >18:1 ratio, is still not fully understood.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
Michael,
Unfortunately, gasoline is a very complex mixture of different hydrocarbons. The make-up and percentage of those constituents vary greatly from sample to sample. As such, yours is a difficult test to assign any real conclusions to, as every sample of gasoline you take from a different gas pump will have a different hydrocarbon mix.
I would guess that the 10% ethanol fuel had significant differences, (other than the ethyl alcohol) in the composition and percentage of other hydrocarbons in the mixture, when compared to the non-ethanol fuel. The ethanol HAD to replace something in the gasoline mixture, after all. The other differences might affect the test more than the ethanol. For example, if a heavier hydrocarbon mixture was in the non-ethanol gasoline, it would be slower to evaporate.
I'm not sure we can say that ethanol, itself, was the culprit, but maybe the hydrocarbon blend necessary to allow the utilization of ethanol was responsible for your results. The key to this is that there was gunk left after evaporation in one sample and not the other. Evaporation of ethanol does not leave a residue, so ethanol was not the only difference between these samples.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
I had a similar experience in my 1957 shortly after I bought it in 1983. I put in 91 Octane Gasahol and had a vapor lock problem out on the interstate highway. Had to wait for it to cool off then restart. When looking at the glass fuel filter bowl, you could see the vapor bubbles. This was primarily from the alcohol and preferential boiling. One of the reasons the new FI systems don't have the problems of the past is that these systems re-circulate the fuel. What isn't used is returned to the tank and cycled back. This provides a degree of cooling to the fuel and surpresses the boil off problem. I rebuilt my 57 engine two years ago and went to lower compression since getting AV gas was a real pain and Octane boosters were not satisfactory. It ran okay on the 91 Octane with Ethanol and did not vapor lock. However, this past summer I found a station selling no-alcohol 91 Octane gas so started using that. Car runs better, more power output, idles a whole lot better and sold me on using in the future. Of course the price is higher. But so was AV gas. Anyway, my 2 cents worth.Comment
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Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire
I recently bought B Modified race car that used E85 . Yes the racers are using it because they can run higher compression and the motor runs a lot cooler .The previous owner had drained the carburetor but he left it set in the fuel pump. It ate the fuel pump up . The Aluminum. I could not get the car to run right so i took the float bowl off and it had little chrystals of stuff in it . I called the guy who built the carburetor and was told that all the passages had to be cleaned out with a small drill bit.He was right I could not get the $700.00 carb cleaned out .DO NOT let this stuff set in anything .Just as the carb. builder told me it is your best friend or worst enemy if not handle correctly.The motor runs cooler with this stuff.I would never ever never use it a Classic car .Look up E85 on the Web it is called wood Alcohol.Yes some drunks have died from drinking it .Comment
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