Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

If you have a frozen slug of water at the bottom of the tank or anywhere else in the fuel supply circuit, alcohol will not likely melt it, but at above freezing, the cosolvent property of alcohol will allow a slug of water to be absorbed uniformly into the fuel, which will purge the water from the fuel system as the fuel is consumed, and that will prevent the slug from freezing and blocking fuel flow when the temperature drops below freezing.

That's how Drygas, Heet, and similar alcohol based products purged water from the fuel system.

Duke

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

The List of ethanol free gas stations in the US and Canada

http://www.pure-gas.org/

Regards
Roy

Roy,
My first experience at following that list -- in far Northwestern Illinois -- was a disaster. The folks at the listed location knew nothing about alcohol free gasoline (it was an ordinary gas station of a major brand). At that point the low fuel light was on in the C6, so I had to fuel up, which may have been the point of that erroneous entry. The next two uses lead me to out of the way fuel depots, but both of those had only 89 octane alcohol free gasoline, and neither place had an attendant to talk to. Both were rather interesting locations though, so they did appeal to the tourist in me.

[Roy V.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Roy,
My first experience at following that list -- in far Northwestern Illinois -- was a disaster. The folks at the listed location knew nothing about alcohol free gasoline (it was an ordinary gas station of a major brand). At that point the low fuel light was on in the C6, so I had to fuel up, which may have been the point of that erroneous entry. The next two uses lead me to out of the way fuel depots, but both of those had only 89 octane alcohol free gasoline, and neither place had an attendant to talk to. Both were rather interesting locations though, so they did appeal to the tourist in me.

Sorry Terry,
I thought it might be a good resource to locate ethanol free gas stations, which we don't have any in Connecticut
Glad you got some sight seeing in.
Regards
Roy

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Sorry Terry,
I thought it might be a good resource to locate ethanol free gas stations, which we don't have any in Connecticut
Glad you got some sight seeing in.
Regards
Roy

It could be a useful resource for certain people in specific circumstances. I did put the non-alcohol 89 octane in the C6, but didn't notice any difference in fuel mileage, but I expect the low octane offset the lack of alcohol.

[Richard M.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

I found this article by the EAA on how to test for alcohol in autogas:Field Test for Determining Presence and Amount of Alcohol

Field Information Number 306

In Gasoline
EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION, INC. (EAA) appreciates the permission of Conoco, Inc. to base this field test procedure on one developed by the company.
Scope
This method determines the amount, if any, of alcohol present in gasoline. This test is designed specifically for field-testing where time and simplicity are important factors.
Summary of Method
A sample of gasoline is shaken at room temperature with an amount of added water. The volume increase of water is proportional to the amount of alcohol initially in the fuel sample. Nine (9) parts of the gasoline sample are combined with one (1) part water.
Appartus Required for Either of the Methods Below
Graduated Cylinder Method - One (1) each one thousand milliliter (1000 ml) clear Pyrex or shatter-resistant glass graduated cylinder OR transparent chemical-resistant plastic (such as TPX) graduated cylinder. (These can be purchased from laboratory or chemical equipment suppliers.)
Measuring Cup Method - One (1) each 2-quart clear pyrex, glass, or chemical resistant plastic container. One (1) each 4-fluid-ounce measuring up (1/2 cup). One (1) each 32-fluid-ounce measuring cup (1 quart).
Preperation
Clean Containers.
On the 2-quart container, mark the level of exactly four (4) fluid ounces (1/2 cup) permanently on the side (a piece of masking tape can be used).
ProcedureCalculationPrecision
Within +/- 1% alcohol if you measured and recorded accurately.
Action to be Taken
In the opinion of EAA, and in the interest of most conservative operations, the following observations are offered:
If alcohol content is less than 1%, fuel will probably have no effect on aircraft.
If fuel contains up to 5% alcohol, caution must be exercised. Do not permit it to remain in tanks or fuel system for more than 24 hours, then drain and refill with alcohol-free fuel, ensuring that no alcohol concentration remains in fuel lines or sump. Vapor lock may be a problem. DO NOT FLY.
If alcohol content is more than 5%, DO NOT FLY. Drain the fuel system, flush all parts, replace with clean alcohol-free fuel and run up engine long enough to exchange fuel in carburetor bowl.
Known Problems
Alcohol attacks some seal materials and varnishes on cork floats of fuel level indicators. This could cause leakage of seals and release particles of varnish from floats, causing blocked screens in fuel lines or blocked carburetor jets. Excessive entrained water carried by alcohol could lead to fuel line blockage or blockage at screens or values when operating at low ambient temperatures at ground level or at high altitude. Fuel volatility is also increased with the addition of alcohol in a manner that is not detected by the Reid Vapor Pressure test, which is used to determine if a fuel meets the automotive specification. For example, a gasoline with alcohol will meet the Reid Vapor Pressure limit of 13.5 psi but it will behave as though it has a volatility of roughly 20 psi. Gasolines with alcohol will also phase separate. Phase separation occurs as the gasoline/alcohol blend cools, such as when a plane climbs to a higher altitude. When water that is absorbed in the fuel by alcohol comes out of solution, it takes most of the alcohol with it. The quantity that comes out of solution cannot be handled by the sediment bowl and tank sumps. Furthermore, if the alcohol is used to raise the octane of the base gasoline, the gasoline that remains will not have sufficient octane to prevent detonation. A good reference for this phase separation problem is: Paul Corp., Laboratory Investigations into the Effects of Adding Alcohol to Turbine Fuel, DOT/FAA/CT-TN88/25 July 1988, FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City International Airport, NJ 08405.
Precautionary
Gasoline is volatile, extremely flammable and harmful, or fatal if swallowed. Avoid prolonged or repeated breathing of vapor or contact with skin or eyes. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting, get medical care immediately

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

"Percentage of Alcohol in Gasoline = (Volume – 100 divided by 900) X 100."

This guy needs a remedial math class. He couldn't pass seventh grade algebra with the above "formula". It is highly ambiguous.

Here's how it should be written.

Percent alcohol = ((V-100)/900)100

Where V is the volume, in milliliters, of separated water-alcohol blend at the bottom of the container.

So if you add 100 ml of water to 900 ml of E10 (which contains 90 ml of alcohol), the entire water-alcohol content should separate and drop to the bottom and measure 190 ml.

This method may not work for alcohol content much above 10 percent, but if you think you have something with 30 percent alcohol, you could add 300 ml of water to 700 ml of fuel and adjust the formula to ((V-300)/900)100.

E10 will absorb more water than straight gasoline, but at some point if the water content is great enough the entire water-alcohol content will separate and sink to the bottom, and I think if the water content is equal to the alcohol content it should all separate out, but I'm not sure what the threshold of separation is in terms of water to alcohol content.

Duke

[Tim G.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

In Austin,our ethanol is trucked in and infused into the gasoline at the terminal. We have only one loading terminal in Austin, a direct pipeline from Houston.The same fuel comes though the pipeline and the major suppliers add their own additives at the receiving end. Unbranded fuel adds nothing to their product, but the ethanol is added to all gasoline. With the ethanol added to all gasoline on the receiving end, this keeps the ethanol trucks moving the product in mass quantities. This method of adding ethanol is also used at the San Antonio and all of South Texas fuel terminals. I’m not sure how it is handled in other parts of the country.
There’s no way to avoid ethanol in our fuel since it’s added at the receiving end.

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

That's the way it works everywhere, but large metro areas may have multiple loading terminals. Ethanol can't be shipped by pipeline because it absorbs water, so it's typically shipped to terminals in rail tank cars or tank trucks at smaller terminals. Ethanol shipment is a significant business for railroads.

Okay, here's a plan for all you guys who think that ethanol laced gasoline is destroying your fuel system, and you know who you are.

1. Rig up a ten gallon tank with a clear sight glass and a drain valve on a shaker table.

2. Dump in 9 gallons of pump gas and a gallon of water.

3. Turn on the shaker for at least 5 minutes, then let is stand for a day.

4. Drain off the separated alcohol-water mixture, and now you have about 8 gallons of ethanol free fuel, but, uh-oh, since ethanol is an octane enhancer you have reduced the octane number by a couple of points.

No problem. Just dump in a gallon of toluene, and your "pure gas" should be back to it's original octane number.

[F H.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

I have been buying premium at Sams Club thinking no ethanol. Last week the tank truck driver came over to look at my vette. He said there is ethanol in the premium and there are only a handful of stations selling non ethanol fuel. Des Moines Iowa

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Virtually all the "gasoline" that US refiners now produce is called BOB - Blend stocks for Oxygenate Blending, and because ethanol (99 PON) increases octane, BOB is several points lower than the final product after the ethanol is "splashed" into the tanker truck at the distribution point.

As a result, if you actually can find BOB at a retail location without the ethanol, the PON will likely be no more than 89-90, which may be insufficient for many Corvette engines if they have something close to their original compression ratio.

Most "octane enhancers" are bunk. Their "points" are 0.1, not 1.0, however if you can find an ethanol-free premium BOB that is 89-90 PON, a gallon of toluene (114 PON) that you can buy at Home Depot and most hardware stores blended into about 9-10 gallons of premium BOB should bring the PON up to the 92-94 range.

Also, toluene's 232F boiling point will raise the mid-range distillation curve of BOB, which is lowered by ethanol's 170F boiling point, so BOB especially with toluene will eliminate percolation problems. Xylene (boils 281F, 116.5 PON) will provide even better enhancement to octane and further raise the mid-range distillation curve.

I would be very suspicious of any retailer who claims he has straight BOB without ethanol or any Web site that claims to have an up to date list of retailers that offer BOB without ethanol.

Duke

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Roy,
My first experience at following that list -- in far Northwestern Illinois -- was a disaster. The folks at the listed location knew nothing about alcohol free gasoline (it was an ordinary gas station of a major brand). At that point the low fuel light was on in the C6, so I had to fuel up, which may have been the point of that erroneous entry. The next two uses lead me to out of the way fuel depots, but both of those had only 89 octane alcohol free gasoline, and neither place had an attendant to talk to. Both were rather interesting locations though, so they did appeal to the tourist in me.

Virtually all the "gasoline" that US refiners now produce is called BOB - Blend stocks for for Oxygenate Blending, and because ethanol increases octane, BOB is several points lower than the final product after the ethanol is "splashed" into the tanker truck at the distribution point.

As a result, if you actually can find BOB at a retail location without the ethanol, the PON will likely be no more than 89-90, which may be insufficient for many Corvette engines if they have something close to their original compression ratio.

Most "octane enhancers" are bunk. Their "points" are 0.1, not 1.0, however if you can find an ethanol-free premium BOB that is 89-90 PON, a gallon of toluene that you can buy at Home Depot and most hardware stores blended into about 9-10 gallons of premium BOB should bring the PON up to the 91-93 range.

Also, I would be very suspicious of any retailer who claims he has straight BOB without ethanol or any Web site that claims to have an up to date list of retailers that offer BOB without ethanol.

Duke

Duke,
Your explaination of BOB also explains why I found only 89 octane alcohol free gasoline at the two distributors I went to from the PureGas list. Now I know. Thank you.

[Michael G.]

Re: Ethanol - adding fuel to the fire

Mixing a gallon of 110 leaded none-ethanol racing gas with a tank of BOB raises the octane enough and is a bit cheaper than either xylene or toluene. My fuelies run fine on that mixture.

One visit to the local race gas suplier for a five gallon can should last you all Summer. Buyer beware, though, as I found one local "Racing Fuel" supplier whose gas was less than pure Turbo Blue, as both my cars ran like crap when I used his fuel. It's very profitable to mix $3.50 per gallon premium ethanol gas with racing gas and sell it for $7.50...

Please note that these chemicals are all very toxic, so don't slop them around when mixing....