NCRS and the clones

[G A.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Dan, It is my opinion one memebr is not, any member that presents three of two for judging will have to meet that standard so we are all held to it.

Hi Roy!

Perhaps then you might educate me, and possibly others on this.

1. What is NCRS "saying" when, for example, a car is awarded a Top Flight at a national level?

2. Is a car that was required to provide documents during judging and awarded a Top Flight, to be viewed as 'more' or 'better' than a car that scored equally and also received a Top Flight, but was not required to show documents?

Thanks -Dan

[Terry M.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Dan, It is my opinion one memebr is not, any member that presents three of two for judging will have to meet that standard so we are all held to it.

This is not a new concept. I have questioned Corvettes presented for judging both as NTL (National Team Leader) and an NCRS judge. I have also done it as a judge under different judging organizations. Usually such questions are handled quietly between the questioner and the car owner, and may start as simply as "How long have you owned the car?" I have, however, been in situations where the onlookers sensed the tenor of the question(s) and what I call "the peanut gallery" began to buzz. Some very interesting situations can develop from there, and it can take quite a bit of diplomacy to calm down the bystanders who have no dog in the race -- other than their morbid curiosity and insatiable desire for idle gossip.

Since Lyndon started this I have to ask him if he is considering "upgrading" his 1971 and if that is the basis of his questions?

[Terry M.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Hi Roy!

Perhaps then you might educate me, and possibly others on this.

1. What is NCRS "saying" when, for example, a car is awarded a Top Flight at a national level?

2. Is a car that was required to provide documents during judging and awarded a Top Flight, to be viewed as 'more' or 'better' than a car that scored equally and also received a Top Flight, but was not required to show documents?

Thanks -Dan

Dan,

I am sure Roy will add his answer, but I think a read of this page will help you understand what NCRS "says."

https://www.ncrs.org/awards.html

There is also a lot of pages in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual

[William F.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Joe,
I agree with you. Lots of ways to look at this but how about giving exta judging points, no matter SB,BB, or whatever, if owner can produce documentation-original bill of sale, order sheet, or in case of '67's and up-build sheet?I, personally, think we need to revisit the engine stamp pad issue. I guess NCRS is afraid of lawsuits if they disqualify and pad that "appears factory" but is in fact a good restamp. The original engine is the heart of an original or restored Corvette and I don't see how one should get a top flight without having the engine that is original to car. Can't NCRS require an owner being judged to sign a "hold harmless" statement?Say what you will, but a judging sheet is a form of certification, which I think it should be,after all, it's called "judging", and if we want our organization to be held as THE Corvette authority, we should do all we can can to separate the real deals from clever restamps and clones.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

what is going on? what other forum?

There is a thread on CF that some guy ask about the obsession with unhit bodies that turned into a Pi**ing match about NCRS & original Corvettes. It went on for 14 pages before it as stopped.
KEN

[Lyndon S.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

On these cars, any thing and can be counterfeited

[Kenneth B.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Joe,
I agree with you. Lots of ways to look at this but how about giving exta judging points, no matter SB,BB, or whatever, if owner can produce documentation-original bill of sale, order sheet, or in case of '67's and up-build sheet?I, personally, think we need to revisit the engine stamp pad issue. I guess NCRS is afraid of lawsuits if they disqualify and pad that "appears factory" but is in fact a good restamp. The original engine is the heart of an original or restored Corvette and I don't see how one should get a top flight without having the engine that is original to car. Can't NCRS require an owner being judged to sign a "hold harmless" statement?Say what you will, but a judging sheet is a form of certification, which I think it should be,after all, it's called "judging", and if we want our organization to be held as THE Corvette authority, we should do all we can can to separate the real deals from clever restamps and clones.

OK so what other parts would you say should be ORIGIONAL tranny,rear end, paint, bumpers interior ETC.? NCRS has a award for ORIGIONAL CORVETTES. WE have a great system & the powers that be have & are doing a GREAT job. Leave things alone & enjoy our HOBBY. If restoring your Corvette & getting it judged by the present rules is not frustrating enough take up or play more golf.
KEN

[Dick W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

On these cars, any thing and can be counterfeited

Are you going to fund a legal team?? Once you get to that level you have opened yourself wide open to lawsuits dealing with the validity of the opinion.

NCRS should just have a special award for cars that want to be sold at Barrett Jackson. Instead of a old top flight, let the hobbyist have those, one could sign up for 100% A-1 certified NCRS award it would not be achieved in a weekend but would require three consecutive years at a national convention .

You cannot seem to get it thru your head that NCRS DOES NOT CERTIFY, anything. The award in no way, in no court of law, certifies anything! It does not even certify that the award is on a piece of paper.

I do not know where you and others get off on belittling Barrett Jackson. Sure there are counterfeit cars sold there and at Mecum's, Silver, RM, Gooding, Southerby, Christies, Manheim, ADESA, your local neighbor hood used car lot, anywhere cars are sold. BJ has raised the visibility of the Ciorvette hobby to new levels. They have contributed to the rapid appreciation of our cars, but so has ProTeam, whether you want to admit it or not. Corvettes are just a tiny part of the collector car hobby. The world does not revolve around the Corvette. Get over it.

[Michael H.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Joe,
I agree with you. Lots of ways to look at this but how about giving exta judging points, no matter SB,BB, or whatever, if owner can produce documentation-original bill of sale, order sheet, or in case of '67's and up-build sheet?I,.

What good is paperwork, documentation? That's easier to fake than the actual dastardly deed of creating a fake big block!

I don't know when this new paperwork/documentation requirement for rare options came from but paperwork doesn't automatically mean a car and it's options are legitimate.

If a 1969 ZL1 is tossed because we think the two that exist eliminate the possibility of a third one being real, doesn't that in itself make a statement that the other two ARE real? (I'm not saying they're not. Just using that as an example)

Unfortunately, when judging, you have to judge what you see on that day. Not what you think you know about a car from some past history.

Will there be experts to judge the paperwork/documentation to see if it's real?

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Corvettes are just a tiny part of the collector car hobby. The world does not revolve around the Corvette. Get over it.

Exactamundo!

[Lyndon S.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

I know NCRS says that, but people all run out and after they achieve the award THEY USE IT AS A CERTFICATION . Why not if the (hobby) has come to this. Go ahead and set up a 100% A-1 certified NCRS award and charge the a zillion dollars for it. Then all the speculators and dealers and big auctions house would be happy , the NCRS would happy I mean just think of all the revenue it would generate for the organization . On just one award

[Lyndon S.]

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

There is a thread on CF that some guy ask about the obsession with unhit bodies that turned into a Pi**ing match about NCRS & original Corvettes. It went on for 14 pages before it as stopped.
KEN

Just to inject some levity- there's way of eliminating the 18 page epic novels. I reset my preferences to display 100 posts per page. That way its only 3 pages long.

[Dick W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

What good is paperwork, documentation? That's easier to fake than the actual dastardly deed of creating a fake big block!

I don't know when this new paperwork/documentation requirement for rare options came from but paperwork doesn't automatically mean a car and it's options are legitimate.

If a 1969 ZL1 is tossed because we think the two that exist eliminate the possibility of a third one being real, doesn't that in itself make a statement that the other two ARE real? (I'm not saying they're not. Just using that as an example)

Unfortunately, when judging, you have to judge what you see on that day. Not what you think you know about a car from some past history.

Will there be experts to judge the paperwork/documentation to see if it's real?

When there are at least two variations of supporting docs floating around, you really have to question the heritage. That has disqualified a car or two from judging at a couple of organizations.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

I don’t know where you get off thinking that I was by any means belittle someone on this board. You sir, are sadly mistaking if you feel that I was singling out BJA or any high dollar auction.

This thread is turning ugly like the CF one. I would think we were better than to go down the road the other thread did. Remember this is supposed to be fun. I think the older guys that have been around the hobby 30 or more years have a better understanding where we came from & maybe because we didn't need to spend 60,000,100,0000 or more on a Corvette. It's like a divorce/estates everything is all friendly till the question of stuff & money come up & all hell breaks lose. I didn't see anywhere that Dick said anything about you saying anything about someone on here.
KEN