NCRS and the clones

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Got news for you, NCRS is and always has "accepted" restamps and NOM cars, as well as ones with altered and replaced trim tags. They have all been judged and marked down accordingly, so what's the big deal now?

Michael-

could you point me to the rule that instructs judges to 'accept' restamps or cars that are NOM ? This is the same question I posed on the other web site when someone made a similar claim, but got no response.

If you meant to say that judges have on occasion been fooled by clever restamps, despite their best efforts, I have no doubt that this happened. Same thing with trim tags etc.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Gold Certfied means that a Corvette has been "preserved in" or "restored to" within 95% of the way it appeared when it left the factory...no better, no worse, no different

A play on words

DICK
I am going to exit this thread like I did the one on CF. One word of advice for most on here & this is not ment for any one of the posters here but a a wise man once told me that if you argue with a idiot you need to get down to their level & then it's hard to tell which is which. This topic has been beat to death& NEEDS TO GO AWAY it is much to do about nothing.
KEN

[Lyndon S.]

[Don H.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Well, that's it then.
we went from cloned classic vettes, to the shortcomings of NCRS, to chicken coops and chickenpoo on me boots, to those spoiled kids today.....
If that about sums it all up, then this thread is ready to be euthanized. (please?)

[Michael G.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

By 1970, my first 63 SWC looked like it had been rode hard and put away wet. Most 63's did by then. It was on its second engine, third trans, its fuel unit was long gone, the right fender, battery, and lower control arm had been left in a culvert, the carpet in the drivers well had holes in it, as did all the interior panels (for speakers), and so on....Like most old Corvettes it was simply an old tired USED car, with few original parts and not much useful life left.

I sold that car for $1,300 and haven't seen it in 40 years. In the interim, it likely re-grew its number six cylinder wall and all the NAPA stuff magically turned Delco again. The right side is now again probably "unhit" (my apologies to the Corvette Forum people for that reference) and I'm guessing its a Top Flight fuelie trailer queen, worth north of a hundred grand.....

There are SO many cars just like that.

Most such cars have been restored. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, sometimes slight liberties were taken, sometimes Clark Kent became Superman. Sometimes the parts that re-built them were the same as the originals, more often, they came from cars that went bye-bye permanently. I've never seen estimates of how many mid-years still exist, but if half do, I'd be surprised. Frankly, based on my experience, the first cars to die were the fuelies, 396's, and 427's as they were usually abused far more that the 250, 300, and 350 Hp cars. That left plenty of spare parts from legendary cars, so maybe some of these clones are really just replacements or reincarnations of the many top end cars that were wrecked, burned, parted out, or just beat to death.... Let's call all the reincarnated cars 'tribute" cars (oh, what? you say that's already been used?) I give up.

There are so many clones and its getting harder to distinguish them every day;...Except for the money, why does it matter so much?

It is what it is, it'll never go back. Maybe collecting, restoring, preserving and driving these old cars is fun for intelligent people, but arguing about how we get the genie back in the bottle is never going to result in an intelligent conclusion.

Most of this thread reminds me of a quote from Diogenes (I'm paraphrasing, I think) : "Man is the most intelligent of animals - and the most silly.

Have a nice night

[Lyndon S.]

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Michael-

could you point me to the rule that instructs judges to 'accept' restamps or cars that are NOM ? This is the same question I posed on the other web site when someone made a similar claim, but got no response.

If you meant to say that judges have on occasion been fooled by clever restamps, despite their best efforts, I have no doubt that this happened. Same thing with trim tags etc.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "accept". I took it to mean that NCRS will judge any Corvette, restamp, altered trim tag, NOM, etc. and thus "accept" it into the judging process. They will and do, all the time. The points are deducted based on the level they recognize these things, as I said above. So like on a restamp, they deduct 85 points, etc. You can still get top flight with a restamp, or NOM, now if you mean they should not allow that, that would be a rule change so talk to Roy. And of course they have been fooled by restamps, changed trim tags, etc., but that is not what I was talking about. Do you know of situations where a known restamp, NOM, or trim tag change has been thrown out of judging and not allowed on the field? If NCRS started doing that, I can guarantee you the organization will shrink quickly.

[Joe R.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Michael,

There is a long list of names that have been asked to leave judging events because of FRAUD! The list will be expanded thru the years and most of the people on that list are known to have presented Corvettes for judging with the sole purpose of building a paperwork trail at the expense of the NCRS or someone that wanted a great Corvette and was cheated of that opportunity. Nobody has ever been asked to leave because they had the wrong engine, trim tag, etc. Those people who have bought a Corvette in good faith will not be turned away or denied a judging opportunity.

JR

[Harry S.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

As I recall I saw an owner and his car leave the Regional in Canada last year. I can't recall if it was his Trim Tag or VIN that was questioned.

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Michael,

There is a long list of names that have been asked to leave judging events because of FRAUD! The list will be expanded thru the years and most of the people on that list are known to have presented Corvettes for judging with the sole purpose of building a paperwork trail at the expense of the NCRS or someone that wanted a great Corvette and was cheated of that opportunity. Nobody has ever been asked to leave because they had the wrong engine, trim tag, etc. Those people who have bought a Corvette in good faith will not be turned away or denied a judging opportunity.

JR

Thank you Joe, this also confirms my experience with NCRS. But I have never seen any of these alleged fraudsters kicked out yet, guess I haven't been to enough meets or in the insiders club of NCRS. But I would caution NCRS not to get so much like little old gossipy ladies that they assume and impute motives to people who bring their Corvettes in for flight judging. I know of many members who haven't had a car flight judged in years, have gone through it, been there done that, and now just enjoy the people at the chapters or regionals or nationals. And other, younger people who just got a Corvette and want to find out more about it and the process of judging is informative and interesting. I would hate to see NCRS decide to not "accept" a car because they don't like the stamp pad, trim tag, or if they shrink back in horror at a lowly Camaro engine stuck into a Corvette. That is when I leave the organization, hopefully the busy bodies will be kept out of making decisions like that.

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

As I recall I saw an owner and his car leave the Regional in Canada last year. I can't recall if it was his Trim Tag or VIN that was questioned.

Hopefully if it was an altered VIN, they reported it to the police, that is a felony most places, but maybe not Canada?

[Carl N.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Mods,

As interesting as all of this is - please remember this is a technical discussion forum - maybe time to shut this one down with chicken poop and golf - both of which have little to do with technical issues ---------------------------------

Carl

[Dick W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Well, it depends on what you mean by "accept". I took it to mean that NCRS will judge any Corvette, restamp, altered trim tag, NOM, etc. and thus "accept" it into the judging process.

Believe you need to read the Judging Reference Manual on altered trim tags.

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Believe you need to read the Judging Reference Manual on altered trim tags.

The yellow insert in mine labeled Winter 2005, says the judging summary sheet must be signed off as to trim tag authenticity, and if not the highest award is a second flight. Is there an update I don't have about throwing the offender out of judging if a non-GM issued trim tag or missing tag is discovered?

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Well, it depends on what you mean by "accept". I took it to mean that NCRS will judge any Corvette, restamp, altered trim tag, NOM, etc. and thus "accept" it into the judging process. They will and do, all the time. The points are deducted based on the level they recognize these things, as I said above. So like on a restamp, they deduct 85 points, etc. You can still get top flight with a restamp, or NOM, now if you mean they should not allow that, that would be a rule change so talk to Roy. And of course they have been fooled by restamps, changed trim tags, etc., but that is not what I was talking about. Do you know of situations where a known restamp, NOM, or trim tag change has been thrown out of judging and not allowed on the field? If NCRS started doing that, I can guarantee you the organization will shrink quickly.

Michael, as Dick has pointed out, best read up on the current rules rather than repeating the common myth of 'NCRS accepting restamps' or outdated judging manuals. And yes, altering VINs is a felony in Canada too.